Welcome to Crazy and the King!!
June 9, 2022

Villain or Victor?? Leaning in to Sheryl Sandberg

Villain or Victor?? Leaning in to Sheryl Sandberg

How will history remember Sheryl Sandberg and her 14 years at Facebook?

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How will history remember Sheryl Sandberg and her 14 years at Facebook? Is she power boss woman we all wanted to be after Lean In or is she the Villain in our history? Do we hold women of power to greater fault than their male peers? Also, the Future Forum Pulse Survey shows continued anxiety and discontent as employers force feed workers rigid return to office policies while executives continue to enjoy full flexibility. We don't want to return to normal. Its time to listen to the worker.

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Production and Music: DJ Cellz


0:00:01.0 Announcer: We've been about this work, Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, Belonging, shared through the voices of a White woman and a Black man, we bring lived experiences. We have pursued D&I progress for most of our professional lives. We use Crazy and the King to cover news, tips from colleagues and host incredible guests. Listeners count on Julie and I to transparently drive the conversation. We thank you for rocking with us. Check it. Julie, kick off the show.


0:00:40.4 Julie: Welcome to Crazy and the King. Hello, hello, hello.

0:00:45.1 Torin: So I'm wondering, J, are you astrological or are you meteorological?

0:00:55.6 Julie: Neither. [chuckle]

0:00:56.4 Torin: She's like, Now why in the world are you asking me this question? I'm asking you that because, for a lot of people, they say June 1st is the first day of summer. But it depends on if you are an astrological person or if you are a meteorological person. So do you consider June 1st to be the first day of summer?

0:01:21.5 Julie: I consider the fastest way to get to summer, so I guess, yes. Yes, I'm an astrological person.

0:01:27.0 Torin: No, no, no, no. You are meteorological because the fastest way to get to summer is by simply saying we have four seasons, and for the most part when the temperatures change, then we are shifting into another season. And so the meteorological people are the ones who say, first day of summer, June 1st.

0:01:50.1 Julie: Okay, count me in.

0:01:52.9 Torin: Astrological folks say that it is really according to the summer solstice and the highest point the sun is throughout the year, and that happens to be on Tuesday, June 21st, at 5:14 in the morning. So that Tuesday morning, I don't know who's gonna be up sipping on their coffee, but at 5:14 AM Eastern, the sun will be at its highest point ever throughout the year, and to the people that are astrological, that is the first day of summer. I don't know if it really makes a difference, all I know is it's warm, it feels great, I'm loving it. How are you?

0:02:38.2 Julie: I am wonderful. And actually on June 21st, I will be on my way to Portland, Oregon to see my son. So that makes me even happier.

0:02:49.0 Torin: Even happier, so you know what? You might wanna start the day at 5:14. [chuckle] I don't... It doesn't matter what time the flight is, you just may wanna start that smile and that happiness at 5:14 AM. But speaking of summer, that's the time everyone is festive, they're feeling great, they don't have to rock a whole lot of clothing. I mean, it's just like, summer is really a special time for a lot of people, really, really, really feel... I don't know, we just feel different, relieved, free.

0:03:23.7 Julie: Lighter, yeah.

0:03:27.8 Torin: Plans? You got... In addition to traveling to Portland, you have any other plans?

0:03:31.0 Julie: Oh yeah, I mean, you know me, I'm never gonna let the grass grow under my feet for too long, so we'll be hopping out to Portland, got NIOG in Boston, going to London, going to Scotland. Let me see what other trouble I can con my husband into getting into with me, but as much of the time on the road as I can, spending time with friends and family when we're home here in Indiana. What about you?

0:04:02.8 Torin: Yeah, I got to curl up with a couple of new good books. And let me tell you, I wanna make sure this summer, this is... My right hand to God, I'm not reading any diversity books this summer. I don't wanna read anything dealing with our space, I wanna get outside of our space, I wanna curl up, as they would say, not necessarily curl up, but I wanna spend some time trying to take in some other stuff. I'm gonna challenge myself to read something dealing with politics, so I have a better understanding of why some of these people act and respond in the ways that they do. And don't ask me, I don't have a title in mind, if you will, I just know that I wanna read a book on politics. I'm also gonna stay away from books on race, I don't wanna read anything dealing with race, racial structure, racial constructs. I don't wanna deal with anything... I wanna see if I can pull from some areas that I don't necessarily pull from. So some good books is on my list, definitely some travel is on the list, a little bit of great travel, gonna see grandma in a couple of weeks, and I'm really looking forward to that.

0:05:20.7 Torin: And then, I don't know. Eric B... I'm sorry, not Eric B, but Rakim was like... He's definitely in the top five of my rappers, and he had a song out, Microphone Fiend back in the late '80s, early '90. And let's see if we can rack a couple of microphones. Now, what don't you want to see this summer? Yep, yep, yep.

0:05:50.3 Julie: Well, I think...

0:05:51.2 Torin: Deep breath, deep, deep, deep breath, deep breath, because I probably flirted with it already, with one of the things that I wanna do.

0:06:00.7 Julie: Yeah, so I don't want to see the SCOTUS opinion coming out overturning Roe v. Wade. I think it's June or July, and that we all know how I feel about that, but I think that's gonna lead to a lot of other infringements on the rights of people who are not White and male, especially women and people... Sorry, I'm reading your note, you're gonna have to cut that out for a second.

0:06:38.2 Torin: Keep going.

0:06:42.4 Julie: So I think the SCOTUS opinion is gonna be a huge set back for our country. I saw a... An interview this week with, was it Margaret Atwood, who wrote The Handmaid's Tale who was saying, "I didn't think that I was writing my future when I wrote this book back in the 1980s, and here we are, and it's very, very true." But I do think there is one thing that we all have to do this summer, which is watch the January 6 hearings which will be starting this week, June 9th, I think some time around 8:00 PM. Birdie Thompson will be coming out and starting those. So yeah, SCOTUS, that's what I don't wanna experience this summer, hope that gas prices and inflation start to get a little bit better, a little bit more under control. I don't know. What about you, what do you don't wanna see?

0:07:42.7 Torin: You actually... You've forced me to bring up something that I had stumbled on this weekend when I was preparing for the show. And over on Bloomberg, there is an article, it's June 5th, Mike Dorning and Billy House wrote an article and it's titled, Capitol Riot Apologists Go Unpunished As Memories of Horror Fade. And then the sub-title says, "Congress plans televised hearings on the Capitol attack, but voters have forgotten they've been rewarding election deniers."

0:08:22.2 Julie: Yes.

0:08:22.6 Torin: And so you raise a good point around that event that took place almost 18, 19 months ago, something like that.

0:08:32.2 Julie: Yep. Yeah, and just to add to your book list for the this summer, Ratfucked. That book is... It's about gerrymandering basically, but it will inform you why we are more divided and why we have politicians who don't have to listen to us right now.

0:08:58.8 Torin: Why... You just said a mouthful. Why we have politicians that don't have to listen to us. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. What I don't wanna see this summer, I'm hoping... I'm hoping that we don't see widespread violence and no mid-summer surprises. With all of this travel and folks feeling a bit free, I know I've been to a number of places here in Baltimore over the last several days, hardly a mask in sight. Certainly, they are becoming less frequent in some places, still there, but you would look up two months ago and eight out of 10 people would have a mask on. Now it might be four or five out of the same 10 people. So it's certainly changing, and I don't wanna see a spike in COVID, just numbers, deaths, none of that stuff. So that's what I'm hoping that we can...

0:10:05.9 Julie: And no monkey pox.

0:10:06.2 Torin: Yeah, and no monkey pox. Yeah. And I forgot about the little spider thing, you remember the jumping spiders or something like that a couple...

0:10:12.9 Julie: Oh, yes.

0:10:13.8 Torin: Yeah, we forgot all about that. See how we do have short memories and... Yeah, so anyway, let's get into some of the stories. So Sheryl Sandberg announced that she will step down from her role as Meta's COO later this fall. She actually... I didn't know this. You may have known this, I didn't know this, J, but she developed the business model that actually made Facebook not just a popular platform, but a powerful, powerful, powerful platform. I didn't know that it was her genius, her mind behind shaping the platform. Did you know that?

0:11:00.0 Julie: I did just because I am very interested in politics, so I've been watching how Facebook and social media influences our politics since the '08 election. And actually, I didn't realize though that she has been with Facebook since 2008, 14 years, is that right?

0:11:17.6 Torin: Yeah. Something like that. Yeah.

0:11:18.4 Julie: Yeah. So an incredibly long time. I think probably what, 2010 or so, her book Lean In, came out and it's certainly on my bookshelf still, even though I probably don't feel the same way about Sheryl as I do now.

0:11:38.2 Torin: So why not? Why not? Talk about that, why not?

0:11:42.3 Julie: And I'm always hesitant to kind of say these things out loud, but because I think that too often women are made the villains in stories when it's not entirely the case, but she's been a big piece of disinformation, misinformation, the spread of political discourse that is no longer civil, had a lot to do with Cambridge Analytica, had a lot to do with other non-US-based political scandals because of the business model, and because they knew that they had data that this was happening and they didn't come forward. And she's the one that has been the stronger of the two, between her and Zuckerberg, to come out and defend Facebook and say, "Yeah, we did what we did." So she becomes the villain in the story, and she rightly has some place there, but probably not the full villainry that she'll get.

0:12:53.0 Torin: Yeah. Well, and speaking of that villainry, I like that. She did, she shouldered so much of the blame for some of Facebook scandals that you mentioned. You said 2008, but I believe it probably hit a height in the 2016 election, and so she shouldered a good, good portion of that blame for how folks were looking at that disinformation, how data was being used and leveraged by the organization. And again, for some, just the power and the swag that she had inside of the organization, for a lot of people, their opinion of her has shifted and then... But there's others, Julie, that say that she refined what it meant to be a working woman. Like she changed that paradigm, she changed that perception, that... She changed what we assume to be a working woman, what was acceptable to be a working woman, and she largely did it through her book, which came out in 2013, so I don't know. I wonder, I wonder... I think about her, I think about people like Carly Fiorina. I think about... You remember that? Meg Whitman, I think about Meg Whitman, trying to think of some of the other powerful women of the past.

0:14:16.6 Julie: Mary Barra?

0:14:18.0 Torin: Well, she's current. She's more current. I was kind of looking back and saying to myself, powerful women in business, where are they now in terms of our opinion of them historically? Do we still look back at them, like for instance, when you think about Jack Welch, a lot of people... They placed him on a pedestal. He was this great, great leader, and then five, 10, 15 years post his retirement, you start to hear the stories around why we now have so much outsourcing in the US, because a lot of leaders were following that lead 20 years ago, 15 years ago. And now you ask yourself, Well, if it wasn't for that period where he did it and others followed. So I just say to myself, I wonder if the book really had the impact, and if our perception of a working woman will be different five, 10, 15 years from now.

0:15:27.4 Julie: And I think... And I... Such an interesting sort of look back now, 'cause I read that book right when it came out. And to me the most important part of the whole book was having a great partner, and that was where we really needed to... I focused my energy on, right. It's like having a partner that's an equal, that supports you as a woman who's driven, but post-pandemic, I even read it a little bit differently. It was sort of like this lean into being a bad bitch, like, Hey, I'm gonna run, I'm gonna get what I want, I'm gonna make my money, I'm gonna lean into my career. And it doesn't feel like the way I want to live anymore, and so even in a... If Sheryl Sandberg wasn't the villain in Facebook story, is her leaning in the woman that I wanna be, the leader that I wanna be, and the truth is probably not. And I read that with a more mature, I think, thought process now that I've been through what we've been through in the past two and a half years.

0:16:48.5 Torin: Well, that's such a great segue because the second story that I wanted us to talk about today had something to do with health and mental health, and going back to the way that things were. And actually, the way that I had wrote it was, Let's not go back to normal. You just said it, you're asking yourself, is that really the person that I wanna be? Is that the type of leader that I'm attempting to show my children, to show my colleagues, to show others that I bump into in the industry? Is that the person that I wanna personify? Is that what I wanna project? And there's a new survey out from the future forum, which found that work-related stress has reached its highest level, work-related stress has reached its highest level like crazy since the summer of 2020.

0:17:43.2 Julie: Yeah, I love this survey. I can't... I'm so glad that you found it. So the future forum poll surveyed what, almost 11000 knowledge workers, so office workers in the US, in Australia, France, Germany, Japan, and the UK, and found that we're not really happy to go back to the way things used to be...

0:18:11.7 Torin: Yeah.

0:18:14.1 Julie: Especially heading back into the office full-time.

0:18:16.3 Torin: I asked myself, What is it... What is it that we experienced... No, let me say it differently. Why is it that we are ignoring what I believed we experience? I think much of the data says we had been productive during the pandemic. Sure there's those offshoots of missed meetings and that the camaraderie that we had at the water fountain and going down the elevator laughing about a particular meeting or who said something funny. We miss that, but I think in large part, J, the data suggests that companies were productive. Here's what's interesting, during the pandemic, and I want you to think about this for a moment, during the pandemic, did we hear about a number of companies forced to go through layoffs and down-sizings because business was severely impacted or interrupted? I don't recall that.

0:19:29.0 Julie: So, I mean, yes, we lost jobs, but they were in service sectors because we couldn't do things, and the economy has made up most of those jobs, so we are re-hiring and outpacing what was lost as we shift back to normal service-driven economy that we are. But for office workers... Not even for office workers, but companies are still making record profits, they were making record profits during the pandemic, they're making it now, and I don't understand this like, now we've gotta shove everybody back into the office mentality, and we're hearing it everywhere, you're hearing... I think Mark Cuban, a bunch of CEOs, it's like they're starting the marketing campaign of how we can't get things done if we're not all together, we can't have a great culture if we're not all together, like, just didn't even hear the words that were being said 24 months ago, to now just get everybody back in the office where we can see them, where we can control them, and we can make sure that we're getting every last drop out of them that we can.

0:20:50.3 Torin: Yeah, Jamie Dimon is on record for saying that... I forget how he started the quote, but basically he said that working at JP Morgan Chase is not for the hustle mentality. Those that want to have the side hustle... The side hustle mentality, JP Morgan Chase is not for the side hustle mentality. And it's actually recently come out that they were looking at employee data, they were counting how many times you swiped your badge and went into the office, how long you have been staying there and a couple of other data points around their presence. But going back to that Future Forum Pulse survey, they actually looked at or talked to... Collected data from more than 10,000 knowledge workers, and when we talk about knowledge workers, people that are creative thinking, thought leaders, if you will, inside of their organization, and they touched them from the US, Australia, France, Germany, Japan, and the UK between January and February, so it was really about a little more than a month, it actually was a little less than a month, and when they asked them questions... And all of these individuals worked about 30 hours or more a week, and they were responsible for work with data, analyzing information and thinking creatively, and... I don't know, I think it's a problem.

0:22:09.4 Torin: I just think there's a problem when we know that a lot of people are struggling mentally with all of the decisions around whether or not to be in the office place, how they show up and do their work, and we are seemingly as leaders ignoring that aspect.

0:22:30.0 Julie: Yeah, and I think that speaking of the Jamie Dimon of the world, the most interesting part of the survey findings for me was the double standard for the C-Suite. So non-executive employees are nearly twice as likely as executives to be working from the office five days a week. So they want us in the office, but they're not coming back to the office, saying that their work-life balance is now 40% worse than that of their boss, plummeting at five times the rate of executives. So that is really, to me, that's the telling part. We aren't listening to our people, we're forcing everybody back into the box, and then we're not living by those same standards as the C-suite.

0:23:26.8 Torin: You know, a quick way to end this is just to hear from the CEO of Headspace, Mr. Russell Glass. He says that, "We know workers are struggling," and we caught a clip of him in conversation at the Mental Health Summit from last month. Let's have a listen.

0:23:43.3 Russell Glass: But one of the reasons that we exist and put Headspace Health together is because there's this huge supply and demand imbalance in the world. There are far more people who have a need for care, than there are providers to deliver that care. And that has led to... The World Health Organization estimates that of the billion people with a mental health condition today, 70% are not getting support, they're not getting care.

0:24:11.5 Torin: Cool, so as you were saying, it's just vital that we listen to our colleagues, right?

0:24:16.6 Julie: Yeah, no, absolutely. We have to listen to what our teams need, what our individual employees need, and just like we talked about how great hybrid and flexible work was gonna be for underrepresented communities, moms, people with disabilities, parents, all other kinds of people who don't fit in that box, this is gonna negatively affect them, and the Poll survey does a nice job of pointing that out. And what women are looking for, what people are looking for is the flexibility to have a better work-life balance, and it's gonna be... I think you and I talked about this. God, I bet it's been a year ago, is we wondered what the post-pandemic swing would be like. We go to one extreme, they'll try to force us back to the other extreme and we'll land somewhere in the middle, but it's not gonna be to the benefit of the worker long-term.

0:25:19.9 Torin: Not going to be to the benefit of the worker long-term. Great way to end the first part of the show, promise quick commercial, and we'll be right back.


0:25:43.7 Torin: In a flash. Apparently, I'll have a bit more to say in London regarding pressure to hide. 60% of women of color in the UK feel pressured to hide their identities in order to fit in at their workplace, according to a new survey from the Fawcett Society. Identity defined as clothes, hair and language. I repeat, clothing, hair, and language for those of you in the back. And against all the data, the widely used four-letter word "data", Tesla CEO Elon Musk has announced a work-from-home ban for Tesla executives. Musk will now require a minimum 40-hour work week in the office, arguing that work-from-home employees aren't as productive. We just talked about that. Will workers comply or will they look for flexible work opportunities elsewhere? And did someone just use the word "flexible"? Rumor has it that in the UK's airports, they have been a mess for weeks. Considering J and I are headed to the UK in a couple of weeks, we hope that they get that together. Apparently, their embattled tour operator executives were on work-cations.

0:27:00.8 Torin: I don't know what a work-cation is, but anyway, Britain has become a nation of idlers too keen to go on holiday and simply not willing to go to work. That's what Ross Clark has said. And don't ask me who Ross Clark is, 'cause I don't know, I don't know him, and neither do you, but you do know your colleagues. Remember what it was like to have fun with your colleagues. Absolutely, June is a great month for you to have a sip and paint session to end the week. And finally, for those of you that like Bridgerton, this headline hit my computer, Britain still has a chance of avoiding the terrible fate of America and France, now I think my Mac is spying on me. Anyway, the headline is attached to a story that touches on how the Queen has saved Britain from decline. Now, let's finish off this episode. So we talked up top about Sheryl Sandberg. I don't know, I mean, you hesitated just a tad bit to say what you said out loud because you said you feel like oftentimes the women are made the villain, and they're not deserving of being such. How do you think history is going to look at Sheryl Sandberg five, 10 years from now?

0:28:26.7 Julie: Yeah, I mean, I think she will probably be the villain in our stories, the villain in our history books, because she has been more forward, more out there, more willing to go on record to say... To defend the practices of the Facebook team. And it will be interesting as more and more information comes out about how social media companies run, what they know, what they know about us, and who they have sold that information to, I think there will be a lot more villains, but I do think she will be one of them.

0:29:11.9 Torin: You know what's funny, and this just goes to show you that sometimes we process, we take in information and the way that we process it, it should be called to question, this is on me right here. As much as I know the name Mark Zuckerberg is different from Sheryl Sandberg, I cannot tell you, Julie, how long it took for me to not think that the two of them were a couple.

0:29:46.8 Julie: Really?

0:29:48.8 Torin: Full transparency, because I'd never spent time going into... Well, who is Mark Zuckerberg dating or in relationship with. Same with Sheryl Sandberg, I never spent time prying into her personal life, because for me, a person's personal life is really irrelevant, I'm evaluating you on that public persona, that business persona, that's what I'm looking at, that's what I'm engaging with, I'm engaging with the stories around your decision-making, how you position your organization, your marketing prowess, your acumen, those are the things that really get me excited, if you will, like whether bad or good, it's what gets my attention, that's the headline that gets my attention. I'm not really stuck and mired in gossip and what car a person bought or they're rocking red bottoms, I don't give a shit about none of that, that stuff does not in any way impress or interest me, but for the longest...

0:30:55.5 Torin: And I'm not saying this was last year, I'm saying when Facebook started to gain that momentum mid... What was it? 2005, '6, '8, '9, in the beginning days, it took a long time for me to separate the two of them, because for whatever reason, I just felt like they were two... They were in relationship building this powerful social media platform. And so when I think about what you said, I honestly feel like the shine of Lean In from 2013, it is definitely going to lose its luster, and that when we think about her in generations... Not in generations but in a generation, folks that are in their 20s now, maybe early 30s, I think that when those individuals become full-fledged adults, family, thinking about where we are in Web 3.0, thinking about where we are in terms of politics and social issues, I think that people will look back and say, Facebook was evil... Let me qualify that a little bit, gradually became evil, and I think that in the end, she is going to take a far more negative hit than Zuckerberg will.

0:32:31.5 Julie: Oh yeah. No, I think she absolutely will. I mean, when you think about... We have a bet coming up with Thanos, is it Elizabeth? Theranos.

0:32:43.2 Torin: Elizabeth... Yep, yep, Theranos.

0:32:44.8 Julie: Elizabeth Holmes, and I'm watching The Dropout right now on Hulu, and I don't know a lot about the relationship between her and the COO or the CTO or whatever he was, but he was a much older man who seduced a very young woman, and... But she's the one that we're talking about. We don't talk about him. We don't talk about that part of the story. She is a female leader who fucked up a lot of things and did a lot of things wrong, but the person that we talk about is her and we don't talk about Mark in the same way, we talk about Sheryl. And so I think that there is just a lesson to be learned, and I'm not sure what that lesson is yet, about how women of power are vilified in ways that are different than men of power, and also how they're portrayed. So this morning, or this week, I watched the French Open finals and Coco Gauff, she lost, she's like 18 from the US, just a very poised and beautiful young woman, but the way that they talked about her loss was very, very different than the way they talked about the loss on the men's side.

0:34:14.3 Torin: Can you add some context to that.

0:34:15.7 Julie: Yeah.

0:34:18.0 Torin: When you say... When you say the way that they talked about it, are you saying that they were far more critical, they were a bit more endearing and understanding, they were aggressive? Add some context to that.

0:34:30.2 Julie: They were far more emotional. Let me say it that way. So Coco is very emotional too. She cried at the loss, she apologized for losing, like she took this on herself as a woman, that was so different than the way that men take a loss. But the way the media talked about her is how young she is, how immature she is yet as a player, oh that she flew her family and her brothers came in to watch and how disappointed they must be that their 18-year-old sister did not win the French Open, she was at the final, she was at the Championship. And with the guys, it's just like, "Yeah, no, this is great, everything's fine, you'll go on, you'll play again." It wasn't like the end of the world, but they treated the loss for Coco like it was the end of the world. And I know coming back and watching out of that, she's gonna feel even more pressure to perform because of the way the media covered her, and I don't think it was an intentionally bad thing to do, it's just how we think so differently about women in positions of power, in positions of success than we do about the way men compete and win or lose in business.

0:35:50.9 Torin: So I wanna understand. I just wanna make sure I understand your observation there, I got the picture the way that you painted it... How does that land with you? Are you suggesting that that difference is, in this case, Coco Gauff and the male version of... Do you feel like it was good for her? Do you feel like it was not good?

0:36:17.2 Julie: I feel like it will not be good for her, yes. Yes, And I feel...

0:36:21.4 Torin: Not be good. Okay, got it. Because I heard that part.

0:36:25.3 Julie: Yes.

0:36:25.9 Torin: When you said, "She's gonna look at it... " So I wanted to hear how you felt... Got it.

0:36:29.2 Julie: And I do think that it perpetuates stereotypes about women, it perpetuates stereotypes about young women, in the way that we just have those conversations as the media, as the pundits that be in the sports world, whatever those guys are called. And it's something I just started to notice that I never noticed before, and I think the conversation that you and I had about Elizabeth Holmes, God, I think it was at the beginning of the year, started that thought process for me.

0:37:08.1 Torin: Yeah, I think it's just... It's a bit of our divorcing ourselves from what we've been groomed to believe to be applicable. Hopefully, that comes across the right way. We do have these gender norms, we do... Like I tell you all the time, I'm protective of the women in my life, I'm protective of women in general, that's the one-two punch for me. I'm going to open the doors, I'm going to walk on the side of the street closest to the vehicle, I am going to be sensitive to their emotions, because I believe that they operate and run differently than the emotions of many men, so I know that I could be a bit wrong in perpetuating some of that as well, and so there is a bit of divorcing that has to take place with me personally, giving more... I guess giving more space to the ability for women to do some of the things that I'm like, "Why would you do that? Why would you even wanna do that? That's... I'm not trying to do that. Why... " So I understand that there is this process that we have to go through. I don't know, you raised a good point. And you are absolutely right. All I know is Elizabeth Holmes. I can't remember another man in that scenario, I remember Elizabeth Holmes, of course, she was the face of the company, but you are absolutely right.

0:38:54.3 Torin: So real quick before we get out of here though, I do wanna direct our listeners to yet another act of inclusion, so the Associated Press Stylebook adds inclusive storytelling chapter with updates on covering race, gender, sexual orientation, and more. This story was actually over on Poynter, P-O-Y-N-T-E-R. And I appreciate that the AP has finally evaluated how they cover and curate stories and say that we have to do a better job. I loved it, and while we won't go into the story, I just really feel like this is something that we should all as leaders in organizations be doing. Can our organization do better? Can our organization do better? One of the things that I do wanna highlight, J, the new entries include instructions to capitalize deaf, when referring to the deaf culture or deaf community, guidance to use they, them, their as much as possible when referring to people who use those pronouns, and the recommendation not to use the abbreviation CRT when referencing Critical Race Theory. So those just are a couple of the highlights of the new, I guess stylebook that the AP is going to be leveraging and I can appreciate that.

0:40:25.5 Julie: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Lots of great topics this week, let's catch one more ad break, and then we'll finish up with Her Voice.

0:40:35.2 Torin: So our Her Voice segment is where we amplify women making moves, and first up this week is former Accenture Song Executive Creative Director Eva Neveau was appointed Global Chief Creative Officer of eg+ worldwide, one of Omnicom's global content and production arms.

0:40:58.0 Julie: And then we have Linda Burney, who this week became the first aboriginal woman to hold the role of Indigenous Affairs Minister in the Australian government. An alternative reference for indigenous in case you didn't know is First Nation. Burney says, "You cannot divorce those present day social justice issues from history and the past," pointing to the legacy of previous governments. "Under the assimilation policy, First Nation children worked for decades during the 1900s, forcibly removed from their families to be raised in government and church institutions or by non-indigenous families, a period now known as stolen generations." She says, "I get very annoyed when people say, "Just get over it, get on with things." It doesn't work like that."

0:41:51.0 Torin: Can you imagine... Like just... I mean, you don't even have to answer. Just give me like a head nod, I'm watching you. But can you imagine your children being forcibly removed from you? We've seen this movie before, and she's not talking about something that was happening so long ago, this is current. I appreciate the posture and the steam in which Ms Linda Burney is going into her seat in office. Former Huffington Post and Guardian US Managing Editor Jennifer Kho will become Executive Editor for the Chicago Sun-Times, she will be the first woman of color to lead the 178-year-old newsroom.

0:42:40.4 Julie: And finally, golfer Michelle Wie West, who began her professional career at the age of 10, reflected ahead of the US Women's Open and her expected retirement. When asked how women's golf has changed since she started, she said, "When doors get closed on us, we just keep pushing." The USGA recently increased the prize money for women's tournament to a closer to gender parity $10 million with the winner earning $1.8 million.

0:43:11.7 Torin: Aah. So much room, so much work to be done. Our quote for the week, "I wasn't saying no necessarily for me or because I was angry, I was saying no because I hope that there will be more equality in the future." That was said by actress Arden Cho on her decision to leave Teen Wolf and turned down the opportunity to star in its sequel because she was offered lower pay than her white and/or male co-stars. A quick mention this week is from The Wells Collective, their Accomplices in Action series is returning. Now listen, because of the date that we put the pod together, we missed their information session, but the series starts... It's a six-session series, it starts on June 22nd. Spots are limited. So for more information, visit thewellscollective.com, again, thewellscollective.com, and once you get there, click on the Events tab.

0:44:14.8 Julie: And finally a name drop to the newest member of the Crazy and The King family, Tricia Lennon has joined us as managing our social media, so please keep an eye on those social media pages. Follow, click, share. Tricia, welcome to Crazy and The King.

0:44:32.7 Torin: Thanks Tricia. We close reminding each and every one of you to share the pod with your digital tribe and define your voice, be a better human, let's create better culture teams and workplaces. For now, J and I are ghost.

0:44:46.4 Julie: See y'all.