Welcome to Crazy and the King!!
Nov. 20, 2022

Fixed: Why Does Racism Still Exist?

Fixed: Why Does Racism Still Exist?

Join Julie and Torin to discuss the existential question we all ponder.

We had a technical issue on our upload this week - we are sharing a corrected version with our apologies. Join Julie and Torin to discuss the existential question we all ponder. Tell us your thoughts on our Crazy and the King Facebook, Instagram or on Twitter #CATK.

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0:00:01.4 Torin Ellis: We've been about this work, diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging. Share through the voices of a white woman and a black man. We bring lived experiences. We have pursued DNI progress for most of our professional lives. We use Crazy and The King to cover news, tips from colleagues and hosts, incredible guests. Listeners, count on Julia and I to transparently drive the conversation. We thank you for rocking with us. Check it. Julie kick off the show.


0:00:40.1 Julie Sowash: Welcome to Crazy and The King, gin and tonic style.


0:00:42.4 Torin Ellis: Oh, absolutely. Let me tell you, I got two regular pimento olives in my joint. And I also have two jalapeno olives in there. I mixed it up a little bit. And the reason I did that is because... Oh, I put a little bit of the olive juice in there as well. It's not like a dirty martini, but I just kind of like that flavor. The reason why we haven't been able to sip in a while, it's been like crazy times. We've been on the move and all of that. But that is actually a very good start to our session or this episode. So I had a question for you. You're out of the country.


0:01:23.1 Julie Sowash: I am.


0:01:25.2 Torin Ellis: Do you drive? Do you drive or do you walk, take taxi, motor scooters? What are you doing?


0:01:31.3 Julie Sowash: I do drive. Yes.


0:01:34.3 Torin Ellis: Okay.


0:01:34.8 Julie Sowash: I did hit a car the first time I drove in Europe. [laughter]


0:01:39.3 Torin Ellis: Okay, stop. We got to talk about that. So why did you hit the car? Is it because your bearings were off because you were on a different side of the street? What was going on?


0:01:47.2 Julie Sowash: It was because I don't pay attention. No, I literally backed into a delivery car and I was a little frazzled and I was crying after I did it. And the man was like, "Are you fine?" I'm like, "Yeah, I'm fine." He's like, "I'm fine. So it's fine." And he didn't even make me give his insurance information or anything. It was crazy.


0:02:06.7 Torin Ellis: So do they do insurance the way that we do it over here? Same sort of way?


0:02:11.3 Julie Sowash: I think so, but everybody just bangs into each other's shit and no one cares.


0:02:15.4 Torin Ellis: Oh, yeah, yeah. You think so because, again, he didn't ask for it. You didn't necessarily have to offer it up. You were wiping the crocodile tears away. I get it. So here's where we are. We don't want you to run into another vehicle to try to find out. That's a question that we can linger unanswered. You know how you can... I always tell people, Julie, that there are four ways to handle an objection in the sales process, WNLB. And the N is never. So that's one of those questions that you never have to address, how the insurance process works over in Portugal. So my question and the reason why I ask you around driving, would you ever drive around with one of those digital signs on the roof of your vehicle? Very similar to a taxi in New York City would have or in major cities. Would you ever on your personal vehicle put one of those signs on the top of your roof and plug it into your lighter or your battery so that it advertised whomever?


0:03:30.0 Julie Sowash: Well, one, does it pay well? Two, is it like what I'm used to seeing, which is like strip clubs and brothels and those kind of things like they see. I'm thinking like Vegas vacation kind of sign.


0:03:43.7 Torin Ellis: You see strip clubs and brothels in Indiana?


0:03:47.5 Julie Sowash: No, like in Vegas or...


0:03:49.9 Torin Ellis: Okay, I got it.


0:03:52.7 Julie Sowash: Yeah, yeah. We're not that fun in Indiana.


0:03:55.1 Torin Ellis: I was going to say, I was trying to get a new zip code. So would you do it? 'Cause I know the question for me is... Or the response for me is, I absolutely would not.


0:04:06.3 Julie Sowash: So yeah, I would think pretty unlikely. And also, what would make you ask me this question? I have to know.


0:04:14.1 Torin Ellis: Well, I got to tell you. So we were talking about drinks and I'm riding around and all of a sudden, I'm looking at vehicles on my left and my right here in Baltimore, and I'm seeing all of these vehicles with these signs on the top. And it was reminiscent of when Lyft came to Baltimore City. I don't know what Lyft did when they came to your city, but they had a big launch party. You saw all of these people riding around with what looked like eyebrows on the front of their vehicles. You had no idea who they were. Looked like a mustache or eyebrows. You had no idea who these individuals were. You just got the secret invite, I got one. Secret invite to this launch party. So I'm looking left and right, in the last week or so, I've seen a number of vehicles even more with these signs on top of it. I said, "Something is happening." Turn on the TV at 4:30 in the morning listening to the news and I see a barrage of gambling commercials, Jamie Foxx and all kinds of other stars. So we now have sports betting coming to Maryland.


0:05:30.9 Torin Ellis: My only reason for bringing this up is, why can't I get one of them jobs? Why can't I be the Jamie Foxx walking in a puddle of fake water like green screen water and telling people to pick up their iPhone and go to... I'm not gonna name any of the sports betting sites 'cause they're not sponsors. But why could... How much do they pay him? And how much are they paying these people to ride around with these signs on top of their vehicles? And I guess that must be the question that you raise.


0:06:08.8 Julie Sowash: Yeah.


0:06:09.6 Torin Ellis: It must pay well. It must pay well.


0:06:12.1 Julie Sowash: Either that or other jobs don't pay well enough.


0:06:16.5 Torin Ellis: How about it could be both?


0:06:17.7 Julie Sowash: There you go. Both.


0:06:20.7 Torin Ellis: I think it actually might be both. It might be that other jobs may not be paying well enough. And I think the betting industry is so strong and they feel like they're gonna make so much money here in Maryland that it's worth it. Speaking of so much money, did you see I was in Palm Springs last week and somebody won the Powerball.


0:06:46.0 Julie Sowash: Oh, they did?


0:06:47.8 Torin Ellis: They had a ticket in LA, two hours away from me, the only thing I could say when I woke up Wednesday morning and I heard the news was like, "That really could have been me." I originally was flying into LA, I originally was going to fly... It really... Why not me? I don't know. Anyway, it's a whole lot of money talk in this. Let's get down to the business. Racism is global. Does that surprise you in any way?


0:07:19.5 Julie Sowash: No. No.


0:07:22.3 Torin Ellis: Unfortunately.


0:07:22.5 Julie Sowash: We live in a world of colonists. So no, it doesn't.


0:07:27.6 Torin Ellis: Yep. So there was some leaked audio over in Queensland. That would be Queensland, Australia for our listeners. And this was the police. Police staff using racial epitaphs in conversations joking about violence to black people and to protesters. Question for you. We don't have to go into the story. You guys can find it over on The Guardian. It's from Saturday, November 12th. I just wonder, why is it that we don't have more organizations developing zero tolerance policies? Like making it so much a part of their organization that it is prominently pronounced on the website, maybe not the home page, but on the careers page, that it is prominently shared in any correspondence between HR, recruiting, and candidate at the time, that it is prominently displayed in onboarding materials like, zero tolerance policy, period. Why haven't we gotten to that stage?


0:08:46.5 Julie Sowash: I think that's a really fucking great question. And if I just put my employer brand hat on, it's probably a really good employer brand activity to do. So if you really want to create that culture, because I think I've read this Queensland article and it is fucking garbage. The shit that these people say is breathtakingly gross and disgusting. Let me just say that. And clearly, it's a culture that has permeated and created an allowable disease to fester. So why not just put it out there and be like, "Hey, we don't tolerate this shit." I like to think that some organizations would like to think that they do, but to actually put it out there like that and be a part of your employer brand, I think would be really attractive.


0:09:42.7 Torin Ellis: I sat there and I read it and I asked myself like... There is something more that we can do. And I'm not naive enough to believe, J, that in doing these things, we won't have nooses being found like the one found at the President Obama's construction site for his library, which also is a current story. I'm not suggesting or naive enough to think that if we are explicit, just, direct, if we are pronounced, that we will prevent or erase all of these things from happening. But what I am saying is that, I just... I struggle with how we are tiptoeing even still in 2023. We are still tiptoeing with coddling and making people that are toxic and racist comfortable. We are still finding ways to put them in time out. Put them in time out rather than snatch that ass up. My mom didn't play when we was in the store. If my mom says, "Stay next to me." She meant stay next to me. If my mom said, "Don't touch anything." She absolutely meant don't touch anything.


0:11:10.1 Torin Ellis: And there are some history around that. We won't get into it in this podcast. But I knew to follow my mother because I knew that testing her was a bad idea on my part. And I don't understand why we feel... As employers, we can't draw the line because draw the line, hold people accountable and we'll find somebody to replace you if that need arises.


0:11:38.1 Julie Sowash: Yeah, the way that we treat our employees in an everyday manner, as disposable, as discardable, all of those things. But when they do the most egregious things, it's like then we make an excuse for them. And so I think that's just a really good point. And I wanna talk more about the Obama library thing, but let's... We'll get it on the other side of the break.


0:12:03.4 Torin Ellis: Cool. And then this next article, actually, a coaching client sent it to me. This is when you know that your coaching is working. One thing that I always say to my clients, J, they'll say, "Well, Torrin, how do we know that the consulting that you're going to give us, it works?" Or, "How do we know that the coaching that you provide is going to work? How do we even know that the presentation you give, even though that's a little disconnected and harder, how do we know it's gonna work?" I say, "Employee engagement, higher productivity and reduced attrition or positive attrition." Those are the four things that I say. Coaching clients sent this to me and it's a New Jersey town, renames its parkway to honor veterans and erase a reminder of a racist past. This is coming from The Philadelphia Inquirer. And let me tell you, J, I was so... First of all, I was happy about the town making this progressive step forward. I'm trying to... You try not to laud them with all of this accolade and confetti and celebratory language when it's something that they should have done a long time ago.


0:13:11.7 Torin Ellis: But you also have to balance that with, "But you did the right thing and we appreciate you doing the right thing." Happy when he sent it to me because it says what we did in our sessions are resonating with him. And he's more empathetic and intentional and in tune with things that are happening around him and seeing how they connect to DNI.


0:13:35.9 Julie Sowash: Let's take a minute to talk about the story. It's over at The Philadelphia Inquirer. I thought it was just... It made me smile. We talked about the first things, just blah, blah. And then we get to this story. And so basically, this township renamed their parkway from Levitt Parkway to Veterans Parkway to obviously honor our veterans, and thank you for your service. And rebuking a piece of institutional racism. So the developer of the town was named William J. Levitt. He built and founded communities in that area and then named them after himself. But his whole gig was basically, "We're gonna build houses and communities." And this was the third one that he had built where there would be no black people. And that they actually would not allow anyone who is not white to buy property in those communities. He actually was sued by a soldier serving at Fort Dix when he was refused a home. And the Supreme Court said, "Yeah, dude, you can't do that. And you had to start integration." And so now, we get rid of that history, but it's important to know that history because I don't think a lot of us do know it in terms of a real physical place we can think of.


0:15:05.8 Torin Ellis: That is a legacy that we get to take home.


0:15:05.9 Julie Sowash: And now more than how many other years later, 70% of this town is black. And are very integrated, and that is the legacy that we get to take home.


0:15:07.5 Torin Ellis: And for those of you listening, if you are unaware of what Julie is referring to, one really quick and easy phrase that you can Google is Levittown. L-E-V-I-T-T-O-W-N, Levittown. And I wanna say, I'm gonna go out on a limb, I may have this wrong and so if you're a listener and I am wrong, feel free to correct me on social or send me a message, but I believe part of the structure that you talk about, Julie, with Mr. Levitt and how he set up this town, I believe it was foundational, instrumental in being replicated in cities across the country, and how they set up their redlining and they did what they did to exclude black families and others from moving into neighborhoods. I believe it was the blueprint, I'm almost certain of that. Yeah, I believe it was a blueprint. But what I will say to listeners and Julie is right, this really is a positive story. What you don't read in the story, and Julie correct me if I'm wrong, what you don't read in the story is that the town has gone down, it lost value, it's run down, it's dirty, you don't read any of those things in the story.


0:16:34.9 Torin Ellis: It's still a thriving place and so another resource that I think you all can look at is one that I refer to often, one of my favorite books, The Color of Law by Richard Rothstein. It was until I read that book that I really understood. It crystallized for me, the power of the Levittown and its impact and supporting of institutional and systemic racism up and down the East Coast and beyond. The Color of Law by Richard Rothstein. Great story. Shout out to you coaching client. I'm not going to say your name, but you know I absolutely appreciate you for dropping this in my inbox.


0:17:28.3 Julie Sowash: Yeah, and finally before we head to in a flash, so we have another really good story so it's Movember, which is where men always grow the mustaches and I hate it 'cause I hate a mustache, love a good full goatee beard, yes, mustache no. Where we celebrate and focus on men's health and HR Grapevine has a fantastic article about how men are starting to use workplace counseling services which is a phenomenal shift, a sizeable shift.


0:18:04.1 Torin Ellis: Think about that. J, think about that. Before the pandemic...


0:18:08.1 Julie Sowash: In our society that men are starting use services and recognize that their heads needs to get right.


0:18:11.0 Torin Ellis: What did we have? We had me too. Remember? And one of the... What do you call it? Casualties of me too was that men, particularly those that are in leadership positions, were saying, "Nope. I'm not taking the trip with Julie. I'm not going to that conference with Julie. I'm not going to lunch with Julie." So instead of facing solutions and ways of being collegial and collaborative with their people, they ran for the hills, they ran for the exit door, putting a cast over all women as if women were the problem. And I so appreciated when I saw this article like, "Great. Let's double down on men saying, I can be a part of the solution, and that my submitting myself to this type of therapy, counseling, support, it's not a bad thing." So I love this article as well. Yeah. And real quick, as Julie said, just in case...


0:19:22.5 Julie Sowash: Yeah, no, absolutely worth the read and to know as man you now ask for help, and it's okay to do so.


0:19:26.9 Torin Ellis: It's over on HR Grapevine and the title of the article is, Rise in men using workplace counseling: Here's why that's good. We'll take a quick break. We'll be right back. In a flash, the terms matter. Words like algorithm, conquesting and targeting have all been replaced with audience refinement, platform and brand defense, and now you too can sell like Apple, and before long, the movie, the fall of FTX will hit a screen near you. Most people want to do better for the planet, but reducing waste production, cutting carbon footprints and living a sustainable lifestyle is easier said than done.


0:20:14.7 Torin Ellis: Recycle next week, talk equity and inclusion, and do not let passive-aggressive racist guests have any pumpkin or sweet potato pie. Perhaps, I need to look at an electric vehicle and Wakanda Forever stars, a brainy duo who shows black girls, the power of stem, while a grown-ass Caldwell New Jersey man called the police on a nine-year old girl for spraying a solution on sidewalks and trees to kill lightning bugs. And scientists at MIT have built a device that can help accurately detect and monitor the progression of Parkinson's right from the homes of people. And let's say welcome to a Sports Bra, a new watering hole in Portland, Oregon, that only shows women's sports. Staffers and regulars at the bra reject common belief that women's sports has fewer fans. That is in a flash.




0:21:19.0 Julie Sowash: All right, so, gotta just ask, does Range Rover make an EV? And would you drive an EV if it came in like a Range Rover Evoque sport kind of model?


0:21:34.0 Torin Ellis: So a couple things. First of all, yes, they have an electric version, it is not fully on the market. I would absolutely drive it. I'm smiling now because I don't want to... I don't want to sound, let me just say yes, [laughter] let me keep it clean.


0:22:05.8 Julie Sowash: I wish everyone could see your face right now and see this funny old shit. [laughter]


0:22:10.5 Torin Ellis: Yeah, let me keep it clean, let me just say, I love my vehicle. Yes, I would absolutely drive it. I'm smiling in part because they actually... They had actually advertised the 2023 models, but they couldn't deliver. So it's like... I don't have any idea where they are right now like I don't know if the 2020... Well, I'm sorry they actually advertise the 2022 models and couldn't deliver them because of the pandemic. So I don't know if the 2023 is the really 2022's coming off the assembly line and they never... I don't know where they are at this particular point. So I will tell you, I'm trying to give them a little bit of time before I go and make an investment because I don't really like to be the first one with anything, that's not what I try to do.


0:23:05.2 Julie Sowash: Fair enough. So... Yeah.


0:23:06.7 Torin Ellis: So I wanna see if I can get somebody else to get some of the kinks out, so anyway, that's that.


0:23:09.7 Julie Sowash: Clean Beauty's ugly side. So tomorrow, I'm about to go get my face done, get my Botox all fixed up. I'm not all about the clean beauty industry, but the clean beauty industry is expected to grow to $10 billion annually by 2026. Yet, product options for Black women are few and far between and about 75% of the products marketed to black women contain chemicals that interfere with normal hormone function from Bloomberg.


0:23:49.5 Torin Ellis: So I think it's important to put that out there because it leads me to... It leads us, if you will, in this episode and in many episodes, it leads us to the discussion of how much further we have to go in terms of inclusion. Like, Julie, if you really think about progress that has been made for so many groups, much of that progress is rooted or has been demonstrated in the last 25, maybe 50 years. There are some things that 55, 60, 70 years ago, but for the most part, if it is a sizable, recognizable amount of progress for many groups and communities or communities and groups, it has happened in the last 50 years. And there's so much that we take for granted. For instance, this clean beauty product side. Now, I didn't know that there was this push in the beauty industry to create cleaner, more health-conscious products. I had no idea. So it just reminds me that there's always room for someone to innovate, to create, to show up and make better or make something more accessible for more people. There's also room for us to be better about humanity.


0:25:23.9 Torin Ellis: And as we illustrated in the top of the show, the noose being found at President Obama's library work site in Chicago. The story about Queensland police being racist, calling some folks guerrillas, talking about indigenous women giving blowjobs to other police officers. Just all kinds of crude, rude stuff, as we talked about those stories and others.


0:25:52.4 Julie Sowash: So before I answer...


0:25:55.4 Torin Ellis: Why is racism so prevalent?


0:25:57.7 Julie Sowash: Let me also say, is it okay? Or let me ask, is it okay to celebrate how far we've come in the last 50 years? Are we sometimes getting... Do we forget to be joyful at the progress that we've made in the focus of getting it better which we should do, I don't mean it that way, but I was listening to a radio show the other day and they're like, if we looked at the progressive movement over the past 50 years, which would include the civil rights movement, the world has changed dramatically for the better, most would say. And the challenge of the person who was talking was, why don't we celebrate that? Instead we focus on the continuance of the work? Are we missing something that would maybe draw more people into us if we took the time to celebrate those minutes? And then I want to answer the question.


0:27:00.9 Torin Ellis: So I would respond in a way of, we should be doing both, as I attempted to do in the Philadelphia story. I don't believe that we should not celebrate movements, progress, accomplishment. I don't believe that we should not celebrate a positive effort towards changing representation. Remember when they were doing the diversity reports, large tech companies and others, people were frowning because the numbers said 3% representation in one year, and then 4% representation the next year. And part of my forcefulness in the space was, you can't expect that number to go from three to 10. That's just unrealistic. If you're not going to do these things right here. And so I think, for me, Julie, it really is, I think it's important that we not only highlight that the world is different, we hit 8 billion people on the planet this week, we should absolutely celebrate and highlight that, but we should never be afraid of calling out where correction or opportunity exists.


0:28:26.2 Julie Sowash: Fair enough. I've been thinking about that all week and been waiting to have a chat with you about it and you didn't know, but you set me up perfectly for it. So why does racism exist? It's a freaking question I think of the ages, but if we start at the basics, systems are still racist. Right? And so sometimes and this is like, I will akin this to climate change. And this is maybe not a really good example, but I'm going to try it and we'll see if anyone gets mad at me. I recycle, and I do all of my things to make sure that I take shorter showers and I do all these and do all that. But fundamentally it is our systems that have to change for us to save the planet. And so I think I have a lot of other kind of thoughts, but at the base of it, is until we stop putting the onus on Julie to do the recycling and start requiring the systems and the pillars of power and money to make change, we're not going to save the planet. Is it the same with racism?


0:29:47.2 Torin Ellis: Continue. When you say is it the same, are we saying, is it the same related to the system? Is it the same related to the number of people and how they operate in the system? What are you asking at the end of that, 'cause I get the recycling piece. I absolutely get it. And we got even more work to do on that. [chuckle] When I learned that we were taking our recycling and sending it to China. I was like, how does that make sense?


0:30:13.3 Julie Sowash: Yeah, it does.


0:30:15.1 Torin Ellis: But go ahead. That's whole another conversation.


0:30:16.1 Julie Sowash: That's a whole other episode. So the point being is that I feel like I do a pretty good job. I feel like I am proactive, antiracist, doing my part which is important. Right? I need to always do my part, but at some point we have to say, it can't be an individual change. It has to be a systemic change and the power structures in place have to own and accept that these basic systems have to change in order for us to actually get past fundamental racism.


0:30:58.5 Torin Ellis: So then I think the answer is a yes. And I'm pausing because I'm smiling, I'm actually looking at an Oxford dictionary definition of racism, which I don't agree with. But I'm gonna reader to you. It says, prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized. And then it says, similar, the belief that different races possess distinct characteristics abilities or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another. And then the last thing that I'll say is, they actually have like a little graph on here Jay, and it says, it shows the mentions of the word racism. It starts at 1800 goes to 1850 to 1900 you see my hand going across 1900, 1950 flat. And then from 1950 to 2019 this crazy arc in terms of the use of the word racism. Now I said I don't agree with that definition part of the reason why I don't agree with that definition is because one of the strongest things that I've done, I think this was 2017. It could be 2018. We started our podcast in 2018.


0:32:41.5 Julie Sowash: Mm-hmm.


0:32:42.1 Torin Ellis: So I think this was 2017, I took a class titled undoing racism. It was a day and a half. There were probably 40, 45 people in this classroom. The title in and of itself drew me in and one of my artist friends was like Torin, you should do this because of the work that you do you should absolutely take this class. I had no idea what to expect 40, 50 people from all different walks of life, sitting in a circle day and a half, talking. Julie, I have never seen more white men, Black men, Black women, Jewish men and women, indigenous men and women, I have never seen Asian woman. I have never seen more grown-ass people cry in a session than I did in March of 2017. People moving through different stories, structures around racism, by the way, the definition that they gave in the class was, power plus prejudice equals racism. Power is what's missing, and that's what's missing in Oxford dictionary's definition, you got to have power, and a lot of people will say, well, as black people you can be racist.


0:34:19.2 Torin Ellis: Yeah, I guess we could. But oftentimes, we are not the ones in power. Our prejudice, our bias whatever word, it's not really preventing you from taking advantage of, having access to benefiting from our dislike of you, our rebuff of you is not preventing you from moving forward. Racism prevents people from moving forward. No access, no support, no resources, no decision making, no extension, none of those things. So it was the most powerful thing for me, undoing racism and it's one of those things that I absolutely encourage organizations to do whether you do it through the organization that I did it with, out of Seattle Washington, or you find another one I know that there's a great outfit down in New Orleans that does it. There's one out of Chicago that does undoing racism. I absolutely encourage organizations, this is something that you should bring in for not just your senior leaders, your mid-level managers, but you should bring it in for people like in construction. These real tough guys. Warehouse house workers, real bravado all of this bravado. Do it for everybody.


0:35:44.6 Julie Sowash: So you make an excellent point, and I think you round back up on where I was going that it is the power structure, right? So it is the white power structure that prevents underrepresented groups from having equitable access to the things that we all need to be successful and to do the things that we wanna do in life. And so that takes me back then to your original point, which is how we coddled racists after the Civil War. And so there are two things from your 1950s sort of moment. So there's a great article in the Atlantic this week about... Called Monuments to the Unthinkable, and it's really how Germany handled the realization of what they did during World War II. And they're very... You don't even say the word Nazi in Germany, you don't utter that word, it is shameful. Yet, after our Civil War, we didn't prosecute traitors, seditionists, secessionists, we allowed them to freely reenter our union because there was a monetary benefit for us to do so. And I think that created this hotbed of people not being held accountable and being able to celebrate what is an ugly and traumatic and treasonous past.

0:37:38.7 Julie Sowash: And you can compare that with the advent of media. I don't know when the first TV show came out, but I'm gonna say 1950-ish somewhere. And then you have media that reinforces negative stereotypes against people who are not white males. And then you put those two together and it really creates us a feeding ground, I think, for just the continued reestablishment of racist beliefs and tolerance of those racist beliefs in our common society.


0:38:17.0 Torin Ellis: So my pause was because I actually did a quick Google search and I'm not finding it. The very first TV show. What was the very first television show? Looks like it was a drama called The Queen's Messenger. Okay, cool. So, you actually raise a good point and that article over on the Atlantic is a really good one and for those of you who are not subscribers of the Atlantic don't have a login if you will or are not paying for it. They also included an audio recording, it's a little more than an hour long. I listened to the entire episode, because I really was interested in what did they do differently than we did over here. And one point that they raised Julie, in the article was, one of the monuments or ways of trying to remember the victims of the Holocaust. They said, we're not going to put the names of people down in the dirt. We don't need another cemetery. God knows we don't need another cemetery, we're going to raise the names of these victims to eye level, take them out of the dirt, give them visibility, let them be seen. They are respected in a different way, we're not trampling over them, walking over them, stepping over them.

0:39:52.7 Torin Ellis: I don't know if you have that same custom in your culture, Julie, and I say your culture as a white woman as a woman from Indiana, if you will. I know my grandfather is buried at the top of the street down in Fort Lauderdale Florida. So whenever I go home to see my grandmother, I always go to the cemetery and can look at and put flowers at my grandfather's grave. You don't walk on the grave. You don't walk on anyone's grave. So they were like, let's raise the names of the victims out of the dirt and the dust and what they said in the article and in the recording was, remembrance preserves the dignity of the victims, so I absolutely love that. And I just think that part of the reason why racism continues to exist is because we are not doing a good enough job of making it uncomfortable for those that are doing that. For instance, that Texas teacher last week that openly admitted in the classroom, in the classroom, that he was ethnocentric, and that he felt his race was superior. He felt his race was superior. Let me tell you Julie, there is nothing to me wrong with a White woman saying, "I love my race," or a White man saying, "I love my race," there is nothing wrong with the person from India saying, "I love my race," a Muslim. Nothing.

0:41:33.1 Torin Ellis: For me, it's when you act in a superior or supreme manner or when you revere your race in a superior or supreme manner. Now, I'm gonna say this, some folks out there may not like it. I'm gonna say it anyway. Ain't too many of y'all can out-dance us. [laughter] You thought I was gonna say something different. No, just messing with you all. There is nothing wrong with having an affinity and an appreciation for who you are. It's the supremacy piece and in all seriousness, you can go back and play the episodes. I can guarantee you, in the four years that Julie and I have been recording. If you were to put some analytical software on every single episode, you have not heard Torin Ellis say the phrase, "White supremacy." Definitely less than five times. [laughter]

0:42:33.7 Julie Sowash: I was gonna say, I've probably said it less times than 500 times.

0:42:35.3 Torin Ellis: Definitely. Yeah and less than three times have you ever heard me refer to Black people, Brown people, others as a minority.

0:42:49.0 Julie Sowash: No.

0:42:49.1 Torin Ellis: I don't do it.

0:42:49.5 Julie Sowash: That you don't do.

0:42:52.0 Torin Ellis: I don't do it.

0:42:52.1 Julie Sowash: No. Hell of a conversation. I think this will certainly take us into 2023 conversations.

0:42:55.9 Torin Ellis: Indeed.

0:42:58.3 Julie Sowash: Let's grab a quick ad break and come back for my favorite Her Voice.

0:43:03.2 Torin Ellis: Absolutely. Alright, good people, so listen, I know we were on a roll. Julie, you know how the Sandman on Apollo, he comes out because your act is like all fucked up? Julie was like, "Look, shut up. You're talking too long. Let's get out of here. We got some things to do." So we're going to do her voice. This is where we amplify women that are making moves and first up, Aditi Maliwal, or Maliwal, I'm not sure how to pronounce that. Partner at Upfront Ventures, joined the board of directors at Zest AI and Loop promoted senior vice president of merchant success, Hannah Bravo to COO.

0:43:47.8 Julie Sowash: Apparently this is Julie Sowash who needs to work on her transitions. Also health tech company Color Health promoted chief commercial officer Caroline Savello to president. Color improves population health outcomes where traditional care cannot.

0:44:04.1 Julie Sowash: And finally, these women were just a few of the Fortune 40 under 40 for 2022. Nicole Muniz, she turned Yuga Labs into a household name in the NFT industry you have Joelle Gamble, the second black woman to serve as chief economist at the US Department of Labor. Spotify's most celebrated woman on the mic is someone by the name of Alex Cooper, she has a podcast called Call Her Daddy and Vivian Chu the co-founder and CTO of diligent robotics, a company that has raised nearly 50 million to develop socially intelligent robots for use in hospitals. So if you want to look at the full list of Fortune's 40 under 40 head over to fortune.com.


0:44:54.1 Julie Sowash: And this week in Disability Twitter, we have Tara Moss who is looking to maintain her digital community, her digital pals and she says "I don't know if I have the spoon to set up another account on another site, but if that's what you are doing, where are you headed, I don't want to lose you my friends my beautiful readers, the writer's community and disability Twitter, in particular."

0:45:19.8 Torin Ellis: And our dear friend Rachel Kitty, she actually dropped a Disability Twitter tweet. She was actually doing something and I think it may have been like a Twitter chat HR social hour. And she says "I'm grateful for my community here on HR social hour, and in the overall HR community, not to mention I'm grateful for my many communities like recruit Twitter, ADHD Twitter, disability Twitter, lupus Twitter, and marketing Twitter." Let me tell you Jay, I've seen a number of those community hashtags in the last couple of weeks and I think the rise of such is because a lot of people are wondering where people will be in the coming weeks and months, given the condition of Twitter.

0:46:05.2 Julie Sowash: Yeah, it's true I'm already thinking about losing all my friends there. And finally we have Julia Irzyk, who dropped an updated book covering disability and the law. You can follow her @JuliaI-R-Z-Y-K.


0:46:22.5 Torin Ellis: And I close reminding each and every one of you to share the pod with your digital tribe. Another good week Jay, thank you for the episode, thanks for being transparent and always willing to talk, even on the fly, impromptu, absolutely appreciate you. We want each of you to find your voice, be a better human let's create better culture teams and workplaces. For now, Jay and I, ginned out, are ghost.

00:46:50.1 Julie Sowash: See ya!