Welcome to Crazy and the King!!
Sept. 22, 2022

Twilio, Patagonia, and Reddit Overemployment

Twilio, Patagonia, and Reddit Overemployment

Would you, COULD you, work 2, 3, even 4 full-time jobs? Is it is ethical? Does it matter?

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Would you, COULD you, work 2, 3, even 4 full-time jobs? Is it is ethical? Does it matter? We dive into Reddit's Overemployment (OE) thread with more than 80,000 posts. Then Twilio and Patagonia CEO's take active stances on racial, social and environmental justice. Can big business meet systemic and social change? Only time will tell.

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Production and Music: DJ Cellz


0:00:01.0 Torin Ellis: We've been about this work diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, shared through the voices of a White woman, and a Black man. We bring lived experiences. We have pursued D&I progress for most of our professional lives. We use Crazy and the King to cover news, tips from colleagues, and hosts incredible guest listeners. Count on Julie and I to transparently drive the conversation. We thank you for rocking with us. Check it. Julie, kick off the show.




0:00:39.7 Julie Sowash: Welcome to Crazy and the King.


0:00:43.7 Torin Ellis: So let me just say this to you. My troops tend to tease me often, they'll call me a boomer. Without any delay. They will absolutely talk about my age when I do certain things, like put hashtags inside of text messages. I may say, "This is funny," or,"#this is funny," or, "#message," or something like that, and they're like, "You are such a boomer. You don't need... "


0:01:15.3 Torin Ellis: For me, it's like I'm just stressing something in our text exchange, J. So do you do stuff like that? Like do you categorize as being an old every once in a while.


0:01:27.4 Julie Sowash: By my children, yes, of course. Everything I do is old and un-hip and not cool, and no one's called me a boomer 'cause they know that will cost them dearly.


0:01:37.2 Torin Ellis: So you feel about the "boomer" word the way that I feel about "grandpa"?


0:01:42.1 Julie Sowash: Yes, yeah, yeah. Oh, that will get you. Yup.


0:01:46.0 Torin Ellis: They have to call me "abuelo".




0:01:50.7 Torin Ellis: I told 'em, I said, If I hear "grandpa" come out of anybody's mouth, tell him we're gonna move some furniture. I forget which comedian said there's gonna be some furniture moving, I think it was Bernie Mac, but it will be some furniture moving up in this joint if I hear anybody call me "grandpa".


0:02:07.6 Torin Ellis: So the reason why I ask is because sometimes it's okay for us to be old. I think it grounds us in a particular type of way. And so I'm over here going through some boxes, you know the situation, so I'm un-boxing and going through some things, and we're not on video, but I'm showing you what I'm holding up.


0:02:35.8 Torin Ellis: So this piece of paper was wrapped around some artwork, and I said, "You know, it's kind of funny, J," and I wasn't talking to you at the time, I was talking to Nick, but I said it would be amazing for us to just stop for a moment, and let's see what was happening when we wrap that artwork back in 2004. This paper is July 16, 2004. And here's what's beautiful, our episode drops on Thursday, so we're gonna do "#throwback Thursday".




0:03:12.2 Torin Ellis: July 16, 2004, front page of the Baltimore Sun. It says right here in the middle, right in the middle, J, "Women workers in the US have bias in common. Discrimination lawsuits highlight how little their complaints differ from the boardroom to the stock room." July 16, 2004. Nearly 20 years ago.


0:03:46.0 Julie Sowash: Damn.


0:03:46.0 Torin Ellis: Now, I know some people will say, "Well Torin, that's no big revelation." It's not, but it is a moment for all of our listeners, as well as Julie and I, to just reflect on when somebody says, "Why do you do this work?" Well, because you all don't seem to wanna change. You all for whatever reason, just don't want to seem to be better.


0:04:13.7 Torin Ellis: Or to say it a different way, let me be positive, not enough of us have changed. We've certainly had some folks have changed and doing some incredible things in their workplaces, but 20 years ago, and I'm not even gonna go into the whole thing for Throwback Thursday, it was just really amazing.


0:04:32.5 Torin Ellis: And here's what's really funny, I unwrapped like five pieces of art, and this was the only one that I picked up. The other ones I balled up and just threw 'em on the pavement, threw 'em on the floor. This one I was like, "You know, it'd be cool for us to just see... Well lookie here."


0:04:48.9 Julie Sowash: Yeah, the gods must have called to you, like beckoned you to it." And speaking of the Baltimore Sun, I just wanna say happy Free Adnan Syed day to those who celebrate like myself, a Baltimore kid who's been in jail for 23 years, who was released and had his conviction vacated just on Monday this week.


0:05:15.8 Torin Ellis: Yeah.


0:05:16.6 Julie Sowash: And the story, if you haven't followed along, definitely worth catching up, but just from a moment in history for this podcast when someone is listening to it in 20 years, that we celebrated Adnan today.


0:05:28.9 Torin Ellis: Yeah, yeah. Were you aware of his story? I gotta admit, I was not aware of his story. I probably heard in passing, but I didn't have any intimate familiarity. So when the announcement came out earlier this week, again I said, "Wow. Okay, cool." And then I began to ask some of those in my head questions, because as I read it, it said they haven't decided... They have yet to decide if they're going to retry him. So I said to my... And then they said his story was actually on the first season of another podcast called Serial.


0:06:08.3 Julie Sowash: Serial, yup.


0:06:11.8 Torin Ellis: So had you or were you intimately aware of his story?


0:06:12.6 Julie Sowash: Oh, oh yeah, yeah. So here's a little known fact about White women, we're obsessed with true crime. Not really a little known fact. [chuckle] If you're a White woman, you're obsessed with true crime. And I listened to it probably a year after it came out and followed, intimately follow his attorneys on Twitter, yeah.


0:06:36.4 Julie Sowash: So this has been sort of a huge conversation, at least in my world and on my circles this week of people who've been pushing and waiting and excited for this day to come for him and his family.


0:06:49.8 Torin Ellis: Love that. Love that. Alright, awesome. So let's get into some of this week's dialogue. Too good to let slide. So last week, we used to say this, J, we used to always say whenever we hit the stop button on our recording, a story drops that we're always like, "This should have been in this episode."


0:07:11.7 Torin Ellis: And literally last week when we finished, I tweeted it last week, but I felt like it was just good enough that it deserved a mention this week, but the moment we stopped recording last week, Twilio made the announcement that they were going to go through a round of layoffs. It's unfortunate, businesses do it, the ebb and flow of growth, product services slow down, things change in the market, it happens.


0:07:37.8 Torin Ellis: But what the CEO of Twilio... Is it Twilio or Twilio? Twilio. What the CEO of Twilio said was that the team would take an anti-racist approach to how they handled the layoffs. And it was the first time that I know of an organization using that particular language around layoffs. It's always been a "reduction in force", "things change", "layoffs", "severance". Never heard "anti-racist approach to layoffs", saying that he just wanted to be intentionally more fair in the process. I loved it.


0:08:27.1 Julie Sowash: Yeah. So CEO Jeff Lawson said in a letter to employees that layoffs would be carried out through an anti racist, anti oppression lens in order to avoid pronounced impacts on what he calls "marginalized groups". Very interesting. I will admit I had to kind of sit with this for a couple of days. You sent it to me, I think literally right after we hit the "stop" button on our record.


0:09:01.1 Julie Sowash: It's the right thing to do. It's when we do kind of blanket layoffs, right, especially in tech where we don't have a lot of diversity, we have Black and brown employees and women being the new hires, a lot of times as we work to diversify that funnel, when you think about sort of old approaches to layoffs, it's always been kind of first in, first out, those kind of approaches. And that will more dramatically impact marginalized groups, especially in tech, where we don't have diversity.


0:09:31.8 Julie Sowash: So I think it's the right thing to do. I'm waiting to see kind of what the backlash is going to be. And there are obviously also legal implications that go along with that, because under the law, you can't negatively impact, let's say, White men to give additional opportunity for Black and brown employees. So it's going to be interesting to see how it plays out. 100% support, 100% in agreement, but I don't think this is the end of that story.


0:10:02.3 Torin Ellis: Yeah. I just, I applauded the boldness of the statement.


0:10:06.8 Julie Sowash: Yeah.


0:10:07.7 Torin Ellis: And said even if in fact there is a bit of backlash, I think the intentions of the team were authentic and genuine and I appreciated that. And I said, listen, they're willing to stand in the gate and take whatever approaches them, whatever comes at them. And so I like you am going to be watching to see where this one goes.


0:10:36.6 Torin Ellis: And whether or not other organizations will follow suit, whether they use the same language or not, whether they will use the same metric or process for evaluating, "How do we equitably go through our organization and determine who should and should not be here, given the circumstances that we're in right now?" Loved it.


0:10:58.9 Julie Sowash: Yeah.


0:11:03.0 Torin Ellis: I found a juicy little thread over on the Twitters, courtesy of Hung and Recruiting Brainfood. And this one is all around people having multiple full time employment. Now, let me just say this to you, J. When I started my first recruiting company, I was remote. And so I had walked away from corporate America in '98.


0:11:34.7 Torin Ellis: I walked away in July, August of 1998, launched a recruiting company probably a month or so after that, if I'm not mistaken, but in the interim, had been picked up to do a full time job. And the job was remote. They were out of Tennessee. Outside sales. So I've been in a capacity of being a W-2 employee and trying to build what some may have called a business side hustle, something in addition to.


0:12:13.3 Torin Ellis: I've never been in a position where I've had multiple full time employers and there are people in this thread, J, that have four full time jobs. Did you see hat?


0:12:27.1 Julie Sowash: Oh yeah. Yeah. So this came from Talia Goldberg. You can follow her on Twitter @T-A-L-I-A G-O-L-D. Talia Gold. And she says she stumbled into a wild Reddit community of r/over-employed. 80,000 members sharing tips and tricks to simultaneously maintaining multiple full time jobs. And she says some of it would be impressive if not deliberately deceptive and unethical.


0:12:57.3 Julie Sowash: I didn't go down the Reddit rabbit hole, but I did go down the comments rabbit hole and all of the screenshots that she put up talking about people who have in fact secured four plus jobs, who are making close to 700k a year in those full jobs and... Wow, that's all I can say. The thought of our little side hustle on the Crazy and the King...




0:13:26.2 Julie Sowash: Which isn't much of a hustle, which is more of a passion project, I can't imagine doing more than what we do now and being even remotely sane.


0:13:39.3 Torin Ellis: You know what, I smiled at one of the comments, like you, I went down some of the comments. One of the guys said that he... I'm paraphrasing, but he said on one of his jobs, he can already tell and he's been there less than a month, less than a handful of weeks, and he said, "I can already tell on this particular job that they abuse your time."


0:14:02.9 Torin Ellis: "If the meeting is supposed to end at 11:00, they still find ways to drag the meeting out five, 10, 15 minutes," and he said, "I'm not even messing around with these folks. Off the rip, I'm explaining to them, we have other obligations and things that we need to do. If the meeting is supposed to end at 11:00, we need this meeting to end 11:00."


0:14:25.6 Torin Ellis: Now, on the surface, that's cool, respect my time, but because we have the insight and we know why he's doing it, because he's gotta get on that Slack channel on another laptop to do some work. It was interesting to read, and I found myself in the thread for like 20 minutes, just reading some of the comments and like you said, the screen shots. I don't know, I don't think I could do multiple full-time jobs and do them well.


0:14:56.2 Julie Sowash: No, no. I think there's... There's a whole big cultural discussion to be had around that.


0:15:05.2 Torin Ellis: Do you think it's ethical?


0:15:07.1 Julie Sowash: I don't think it's unethical.


0:15:09.2 Torin Ellis: You don't think it's unethical? Okay.


0:15:11.1 Julie Sowash: No. I mean, if we're remote, how my time gets used and how you get the job done. If you're getting the job done, job gets done, and that's what matters when we live in a society where we can work and play how we choose, how you spend that time is really up to you. If you're doing the job, you're doing the job. That's my opinion.


0:15:37.2 Julie Sowash: Obviously, there's some lying and some things that go on with it that make it less savory, but just the fact that you have them, I've got no problem with. Especially it seems like a lot of people are probably in sales, and so if you meet your quota, you meet your quota. That's just me. Although I do wonder if they have the little mice that move themselves so they keep your Slack channel awake. Have you seen those?


0:16:05.3 Torin Ellis: I have not.


0:16:06.4 Julie Sowash: That's some shady shit right there. [chuckle]


0:16:07.6 Torin Ellis: So wait a minute, there's a technology out that moves your mouse for you, so that it seems like you're active in your Slack channel?


0:16:16.0 Julie Sowash: Yeah, yeah. So I think the big... My big problem is, is if they fuck it up for everyone else, those of us who are just actually working one job, 40 hours a week, don't fuck it up for the rest of us with your plan.


0:16:29.6 Torin Ellis: No doubt. So have you ever met Josh Bersin.


0:16:32.2 Julie Sowash: No. I've seen him on stage. A few times, yeah.


0:16:35.8 Torin Ellis: You've seen him on stage. He seems to be on quite a few stages.


0:16:43.8 Julie Sowash: Every stage, yeah. [chuckle]


0:16:43.9 Torin Ellis: There was an article that he dropped, it's an older article, but he talked about mental health back in August, and he talked about it becoming a business imperative. I'm always amazed, I'm always amazed when people... When people make mentions that sound like revelations.


0:17:11.9 Torin Ellis: So again, at the top of the show, what did I say? This is not a revelation just because it was talked about in 2004, it's just really a reminder as to why we all are doing this work. I think that people's mental health should have always been a business imperative. It comes with the person, right?


0:17:34.8 Julie Sowash: Yeah, so this is over MIT Sloan Management Review, and the first line is the most striking. "Of the many issues we faced throughout the past two years, perhaps the most surprising, the most surprising but important is mental health." Dude, you're one of the great thinking minds in our industry, and this is the most surprising?


0:18:02.6 Julie Sowash: And even now that he wrote this, this is just from August, it's not like it's old, that he's just now getting it, that tells you a lot about the thought leadership in our community, about how dismissive we've been of mental health. I can tell you, you and I have had this conversation plenty of times, that the good thing that came out of the pandemic, and I'm air quoting, is that for the first time ever we're able to have a conversation about mental health at work.


0:18:37.2 Julie Sowash: Where for a decade, that conversation when I've tried to open that up with companies has been dismissed, trivialized, if not outright just like, "Yeah, no. Those people are faking it. We're not dealing with it." And so the good news is Josh finally figured out, a lot of us have finally figured it out, and hopefully not gonna fall behind.


0:19:03.4 Torin Ellis: In Josh's defense, and I'm not one to take necessarily or that he needs me to take his defense, but when I look at the article, it sounds to me like he's reporting back his findings, like people have revealed that mental health now is an issue that they are paying attention. Thinking about the small business, is it...


0:19:36.3 Torin Ellis: The Chamber of Commerce, the big association, Chamber of Commerce, where a couple of years ago they said organizations need to focus more on their stakeholders and not shareholders. And this article right here is, it's the two-year lag in that statement right there, because we know that a number of organizations have failed to focus on the stakeholder, they continue to put their emphasis on the shareholder.


0:20:04.3 Torin Ellis: And so I saw this article as one of those where perhaps it's a bit of push and pull. Perhaps we are asking a better more right question, thereby getting a better, more accurate answer, and now it being placed in a report for all of us to read, if you will.


0:20:31.3 Julie Sowash: I hope so. I hope so. And we'll again, kind of check back and see if this has become a permanent change of the pandemic or if it's a swing reaction. Hopefully, we are gonna see it is permanent.


0:20:47.4 Torin Ellis: Absolutely right. And just a quick reminder that Hispanic and Latino Heritage Month actually started on September 15th, runs an entire month, ends on October 15th. And so this is a great time, not a performative time, a great time. I repeat, not a performative time, but this is a great time for you to amplify and celebrate, have conversations, do things that support your Latin employees, their families, their friends and their culture. We'll be right back.


0:21:26.8 Torin Ellis: In a Flash this week, Amazon plans to raise pay for delivery drivers. It's Amazon's latest bid to retain workers in a tight labor market ahead of the crucial holiday season. The NBA suspended Robert Sarver, the majority owner of the Phoenix Suns, and fined him $10 million over misconduct that included the use of racial slurs.


0:21:52.4 Torin Ellis: Apparently, remote work is killing Florida, probably some of those multi job holders, because retirement paradise that Florida has been known to be, is seeing a spike in housing costs. And sexual harassment training, despite its long term presence in the workplace, is still heavily reported by both men and women.


0:22:16.8 Torin Ellis: And since we're talking about sex, sorta, non binary runners can now compete in the Boston Marathon without having to register in either the men's or women's division. And Uber was hacked a couple of weeks back. A New York Amazon delivery driver rushed into a burning home. And tribal leaders arrived at the University of North Dakota last month for a somber and secret task.


0:22:46.2 Torin Ellis: That task, for three days they scoured storage rooms, recited prayers and hauled off boxes. It was a first step in the long process of returning artifacts and the remains of Native American people from the university to the tribes.




0:23:09.5 Julie Sowash: Alright, welcome back. Great In a Flash, as always, my friend. So this week, actually late last week, we saw Patagonia's founder Yvon Chouinard and his family gave their entire interest in $3 billion company to a special trust, where all proceeds will now be used to address climate change. What do you think?


0:23:33.6 Torin Ellis: I think it's a good one because Patagonia is and has been a B Corp forever. I believe the company is like 50 years old. And there was a story, it really was an interview with the current CEO of Patagonia, his name is Ryan Gellert. G-E-L-L-E-R-T. And Business Insider sat down with Ryan and they asked him a variety of questions.


0:23:58.2 Torin Ellis: The article talks about how he wrestles with the paradox of outdoor, the outdoor gear makers, good works, their philanthropic efforts, and their intentions not being good enough to justify the company's existence. That's an interesting position to take. He actually feels like the organization, the company, the team, they should be doing more. Cool. Well, it wasn't that part that caught my attention.


0:24:28.9 Torin Ellis: What caught my attention was the title of the article, Patagonia's CEO Gets Candid, How Sustainability, Diversity and Social Justice Guide the Beloved Brand. Again, it's an older article, but it is absolutely timely. Like you said, they actually just made the announcement that they are going to turn the entire organization, the company over to a special trust. It's a very, very unique move.


0:24:56.7 Torin Ellis: And what I want to talk about today, J, is we have the sentiment right now floating around us and we've talked about it a couple of times. We've talked about how these folks are upset about critical race theory. I go back and look at when the president made the announcement around critical race theory in the federal government.


0:25:17.7 Torin Ellis: And you and I said on our show, "Trust me, it's happening right here in the federal government. Give it just a couple of months and it is going to seep in the corporate corridor and we're going to have backlash in corporate corridors around D&I, we see it." We now have the sentiment floating around that companies don't need to be woke, that companies don't need to pursue ESG, Environmental Sustainability and Governance initiatives, that they don't need to worry about those things.


0:25:50.8 Torin Ellis: And so I just thought pulling some of the excerpts from this article would be good for us to talk about, because I think it really comes down to one thing, and that thing is taking action, like doing something.


0:26:06.0 Julie Sowash: Yeah. I mean, absolutely. And I think a lot of our conversations for these CEOs started in the post George Floyd aftermath. And that was one of the sort of kick-off questions they asked in this interview, which I found very compelling. He talks about coming to grips with his shortcomings and complicity in his role at Patagonia, and also in the ways that his... He manages personal life.


0:26:41.4 Torin Ellis: You actually bring up something really sweet there, that "coming to grips" piece. When you... I'm gonna take you back. I'm not gonna mention any names, but I'm gonna take you back. You recall my getting up when we were sitting and having some beverages and a person said that they really didn't want their children to lose access to opportunity and advantage and some of the other things? They didn't say it in my presence, they said it in your presence, because you shared a number of descriptive characteristics.


0:27:25.8 Torin Ellis: And so here's the deal. I am very curious, when you talk about him, Ryan, coming to grips with his shortcomings, as you move in conversations, I'm only speaking professionally. No, bump that. As you move in conversations, are you hearing that? Are you hearing people saying, "Wow, I missed, I didn't recognize, I was so out of touch. I'm disconnected." Do you hear that often, or no?


0:27:55.7 Julie Sowash: I think it's probably a 50-50 split. Some people in my professional world and in my life, you get the backlash, you get that conversation, "I don't wanna give up my privilege, I'm gonna continue to act in my own best interest and not really frankly, give a shit about anyone else."


0:28:13.3 Julie Sowash: And then you get people who have are these profound moments of enlightenment where you see a seismic world shift, and that sort of reminds me of what I see in this first sort of mea culpa with the Patagonia CEO like, "Hey, I just didn't see it, and now I see it."


0:28:41.8 Torin Ellis: Yeah, and he actually talks about it being a bit difficult. He says, "Listen, I've been having some honest conversations with colleagues, and in some of these instances I've gotten some backlash." And I love his choice of words, backlash because people wanted to give it to him personally or because he was a place holder, he was a figure head, he was the person that they had access to.


0:29:08.3 Torin Ellis: And so because they have access to him, whether he was directly responsible for their pain, their broken promise, the challenge that they have had to overcome, endure, he had to take that animus. And the way that he talks about it here, again, I'm surmising because he doesn't go into detail, I would really love to have a conversation with Ryan Geller and be able to say, "Go a layer deeper on that right there. How did you handle that?"


0:29:41.0 Torin Ellis: You know, you often hear me say "fatigue and fragility". Were you fragile in those moments? Were you... Did you stand tall and just attentively listen and do that without becoming emotional? And did you walk away and compartmentalize how you were feeling so that you didn't overtake or overshadow or disrupt, dismiss the person's position when they were angry, especially if they were... I would love to have that conversation.


0:30:14.4 Torin Ellis: You know, Julie, I would love to have that conversation with a number of people that have had to face that challenging scenario of it being uncomfortable, it being courageous. I would love to have a conversation with a number of people that have been placed in that predicament or situation.


0:30:32.4 Julie Sowash: Yeah, I think we could all use a master class in to not be angry, how to not go on the attack, so to speak. To try to change minds, but just to listen and find out where those opportunities for change exist. And like the Twilio founder this week, Patagonia, really took a stand publicly. Right?


0:30:57.1 Julie Sowash: So they put out an "acknowledgement statement", is what they call it, and it's about, "Here's what we understand to be true, which is that the company has culpability in contributing to systemic racism," and here's what they plan to do about it, and I think that is also a profound statement for a publicly traded company to make, who are still to this day shareholder-first.


0:31:24.7 Torin Ellis: And let me tell you, as I read the article, and I might come back to that acknowledgment statement, as I read the article, full disclosure, I've never owned a piece of Patagonia apparel or merchandise, if you will. None. So as I'm reading the article, it says that they've developed a lot of wares for corporate clients, you could put the corporate logo on said vest or whatever the case would be. Always thought they were average looking, cool looking, whatever.


0:32:08.5 Torin Ellis: But he said something in the article, he said, "If you have the corporate logo on the piece of the item and you leave that organization, the chances are you're not going to wear that piece of material, that clothing again, because you now work for a different... " Makes sense. Makes all the sense in the world.


0:32:31.9 Torin Ellis: So what he said was, "But if we are a responsible organization, I don't want our merchandise to end up in landfills. I want our merchandise to be re-purchasable so that we can repurpose it and put it back in the marketplace." I had no idea that they even did that. Did you know that?


0:32:51.9 Julie Sowash: Yeah, and in fact the only Patagonia gear I've ever owned has come from a vendor, just a TA vendor who had nice jacket, nice luggage, nice whatever, embroidered with a logo that they were associated with, and I got it through SWAG or whatever. So I always wondered because he put that statement, they did that word about two years ago, maybe a year and a half ago, where you can no longer use Patagonia as a part of a brand package, you can't do that.


0:33:23.8 Julie Sowash: And so that's the reason why, and I never knew that that was the reason why. I always just thought it was some sort of corporate statement about making them more of a luxury item or more of a high-end item versus corporate gear.


0:33:40.0 Torin Ellis: Going back to that acknowledgement statement. Just a couple of episodes ago, we kind of riffed for a moment, we won't do it today, but we riffed for a moment on your surrogate. What would life be like if every figure head of an organization took responsibility for their organization's past, current or future participation in D&I efforts? I'm being a rhetorical question, not one that requires it.


0:34:22.7 Torin Ellis: But just imagine if every leader said, "You know what, we're gonna admit where we had some misgivings, some shortcomings. We are going to take full responsibility for our participation. If in fact, any of that participation has been derived from the sweat labor, whether it be historical, two, three, 400 years ago, or right now, where we are taking advantage of migrants, under-paying them, under-compensating them, allowing them to experience engagements and interactions with ICE people, and we are not supporting them in their... "


0:35:02.5 Torin Ellis: Whatever that is, what would life be like if every leader said, "Today's the day that I'm gonna make a declarative statement."? Earlier this week was National Voter Registration Day, like it was the day that you're supposed to really work hard to do that. What if every leader said, "We're just gonna do an acknowledgement statement."? I think the clouds might part or something.


0:35:28.7 Julie Sowash: And pigs might fly.




0:35:35.3 Julie Sowash: And that's the thing, I think that in our society today, is that good people are more cautious about saying things like an acknowledgement statement, like having a historical reckoning, where you have people on the other end, you mentioned migrants, like Governor Abbott and Governor DeSantis who have no problem trafficking human beings who've fled their countries in order to come here and create a better life and create a better nation, and boasting about the way that they treat them and the... And that cruelty being the point.


0:36:08.2 Julie Sowash: What's wrong with coming out and saying, "Hey, we acknowledge that we have a history here, that we have a present, that we have a future, and that we can be both good stewards of our shareholders' investments and be good humans at the same time."?


0:36:25.7 Torin Ellis: I mean, think about it. We just experienced in the last two weeks, since you bring up a couple of political figures, we just experienced an administration having to step in and prevent our rail system from collapsing. We just witnessed that. And again, I think if we had leadership that were willing to acknowledge, "We're just not doing a good enough job of taking care of our people."


0:36:54.5 Torin Ellis: We know that incremental growth or ongoing growth, continuous improvement is a real thing. We get that. But when you sit back and you look at a list of misgivings by the railroad community in that instance, or look at the 15,000 nurses in Minnesota that decided that they wanted to and needed to go on strike last week.


0:37:19.5 Torin Ellis: When you just think of the list of infractions against these people, I think having an... You know what? We should work hard. Could Crazy and the King come up with an acknowledgement day for corporate America? Maybe we could pull that off. Then it won't be a side hustle, my dear.


0:37:42.7 Julie Sowash: It would not. [chuckle]


0:37:44.1 Torin Ellis: We might be a little bit popular and familiar if the two folks from Crazy and the King could get corporate America to have and celebrate an Acknowledgement Day on an annual basis. But in all seriousness, I just think that if we have more leaders that were willing to be like Ryan Geller.


0:38:05.8 Torin Ellis: And again, it's not that I need you to be a copycat version of him, but if you could just find that, find that button inside that says, "I'm just gonna be honest. It's gonna cost something, it's gonna hurt, we might lose a little bit. But I just gotta show up today, and I just have to be honest." You know?


0:38:25.6 Julie Sowash: Yeah. And I think as we close out this segment, there is one quote from Ryan that I really loved, when he was asked, "Should you be a community activist or a policy wonk as opposed to a corporate CEO?" and he says, "We need to prosper and we've gotta remain dynamic and relevant. If we wanna see these ideas, like the use of recycled materials and circularity scale, we actually need to prove they can be profitable. I love the fact that we use this entire business to accomplish bigger things."


0:38:56.1 Torin Ellis: Using the entire business to accomplish bigger things. And helping us accomplish bigger things, our sponsor. This week in our Her Voice segment, it's where we amplify women that are making moves, and to kick it off, former Tableau senior director of Cloud Engineering, Deanna Sousa, has joined the New York Times as a senior VP and lead for its Delivery Engineering mission, while Jamira Burley joins Apple as their first Worldwide Education Strategic Initiatives lead.


0:39:35.8 Julie Sowash: And Adobe has appointed Nubiaa Shabaka as chief privacy officer and chief cybersecurity legal officer. The children's book curator and distributor, Literati, has hired Carla Engelbrecht, former director of Product Innovation at Netflix, as their chief product officer.


0:39:53.1 Torin Ellis: And let me tell you, I got a whole lot of love for Misty Copeland. Love what she's doing, love what she's doing, love what she's doing. She's created a program to bring a bit more diversity to ballet. Shout out to you, Misty Copeland.


0:40:08.8 Julie Sowash: And finally we have, Netflix has hired Jeremi Gorman as its new advertising chief to bring growth back to its struggling business. Gorman had compiled a colorful resume of professional and personal accomplishments. While she's best known for turning her previous employer, Snap, into an internet powerhouse, Gorman also played an important role in developing the ad business at Amazon, now the number three player in digital advertising.


0:40:37.0 Torin Ellis: And Disability Twitter this week, it's where we try to amplify a community that is often not on our radar. This is not how you plan the agenda.




0:40:53.5 Torin Ellis: Our first tweet comes from Dr. Brenda J. Buck, and she's a real doctor, PhD, Dr. Brenda J. Buck. She actually put up a tweet, and she's on Twitter @ScienceBuck, @ScienceBuck. Her tweet reads, "I was just DISINVITED to give a talk on my research because I have to wear a respirator for my disability. Tips for others: DON'T DO THIS. Don't disinvite an individual because they have to wear a respirator or any other accommodation. If you extend the invitation, live out that extension."


0:41:30.8 Torin Ellis: I want to just update, deeper in the thread she also shares that the national organization apologized to her. She appreciated their apology, and then she went on to talk about why she wears the respirator. Go out and follow ScienceBuck for more information.


0:41:48.3 Julie Sowash: Yeah. And next we have the TEND Project, T-E-N-D Project, which is embodied narratives of disabilities, has announced the launch of a new podcast, Accessibility and Me, which will explore issues related to work and disability. In their first episode, they discuss neurodiversity in the workplace with solicitor and advocate, Johnny J. Andrews.


0:42:13.0 Torin Ellis: And the Syren Nagakyrie is the author of the book, The Disabled Hiker's Guide to Western Washington and Oregon. Now, I've never been to Oregon. I have been to... I'm sorry, wait a minute. I've never been to Washington. I have been to Oregon. I've never been hiking. So I don't know if it's necessarily a guide for a person... I'm not in for tents and all those other things.


0:42:48.7 Torin Ellis: However, I'm appreciative of the fact that The Disability Hiker's Guide to Western Washington and Oregon is out. It is by Syren Nagakyrie. And that tweet was found by Alii Ridge, A-L-I-I, and the word Ridge, R-I-D-G-E. Great show, J. I appreciate you. You look like you are in a non-disclosed secret mission place, like soundproof window. It's dark.




0:43:22.7 Torin Ellis: So I don't know what you're up to. I don't know where you are. I just know that you made it on time for another episode, and I always thank you for having good and rich conversation.


0:43:35.0 Julie Sowash: Yeah. Well, I'm not gonna tell you where I am for one time ever, but happy to always have this wonderful conversation with you, my friend, and talk about all of the amazing things that are happening in our world.


0:43:46.5 Torin Ellis: We close reminding each and every one of you to share the pod with your digital tribe. Find your voice. Be a better human, build better teams, better culture, better workplaces. For now, J and I are ghost.




0:44:00.7 Julie Sowash: See ya.