When is Enough Enough?

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0:00:00.0 Torin: We've been about this work, diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging. Shared through the voices of a white woman and a Black man. We bring lived experiences. We have pursued DEI progress for most of our professional lives. We use Crazy and The King to cover news, tips from colleagues and host incredible guests. Listeners count on Julie and I to transparently drive the conversation. We thank you for rocking with us. Check it. Julie, kick off the show.

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0:00:41.9 Julie: Welcome to Crazy and The King.

0:00:48.9 Torin: February in Baltimore. Now, what you can see on camera is that I have on a sweater, beanie, but what you can't see is that the cleaner shrunk my sweater. So it actually feels like a midriff around this joint right now, J and I'm a little upset about that, because I kinda put it on right before we started recording, and I was in a sweat suit and I said, "Let me get kind of camera ready." And so, I literally feel like I'm wearing a midriff right now. I'm not standing up, but...

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0:01:28.2 Julie: I was gonna say I can't see your midriff, so I don't know.

0:01:30.4 Torin: It feels a little midriffy around this joint. So if I'm anything like Punxsutawney Phil or whatever his name is, you know, the Groundhog.

0:01:42.0 Julie: The groundhog.

0:01:43.8 Torin: Yeah, so if my sweater is anything like Punxsutawney Phil, then [chuckle] we might have a couple of more weeks of winter left 'cause it's getting chilly around this joint. How you feel?

0:01:55.8 Julie: Good, good. Just actually, as you know, we'll tell the world, right before this, recording, we sent our oldest back to Budapest. She is on her way for another six-month stint and in the city that she loves. So I'm a little emotional today but I'm super proud of her and happy that she's going and happy to get over there. How about you?

0:02:18.4 Torin: Yeah. Her first tour, I'll call it, allowed her to get acclimated. And what was that like for her? Did it take her a long time to get comfortable with the language, with the exchange rate of money, moving about the village, the city? How did she kinda...

0:02:40.7 Julie: No. Surprisingly... Our kids are fairly well-traveled for kids and so she took me all over in public transportation, she knew all the cafes, she had the reservations, everything. It was like she had lived in the city her whole life. And it's a super cool city. I loved it. And so now she has her own apartment 'cause she was in school before, and so that'll be her first time living on her own with a roommate and all kinds of cool stuff. So it's a pretty exciting time to be Kennedy and I miss her.

0:03:17.9 Torin: Well, as you should. Because as a parent, as a mom, if you didn't say you missed her... [chuckle]

0:03:27.7 Julie: There may have been some days that I wouldn't say that I missed her but most of the time I do.

0:03:30.8 Torin: Some days is okay, but the point is when we know we're aboard the plane, we're completely out of the country and for you to not say that that would actually raise a bit of a flag for some folks. I'll tell you somebody else who actually raised a flag. We may not get a chance to talk about her. I didn't write her down but this is kind of funny. Maybe we can get to it. But have you ever heard of Bitchcoin?

0:03:55.8 Julie: No.

0:03:58.0 Torin: Okay. So maybe we'll try to get to it, but for those of you who are out there listening, the young lady's name is Sarah Meyohas. Meyohas. I think I'm pronouncing that correctly. Sarah, S-A-R-A-H M-E-Y-O-H-A-S. Sarah Meyohas. Let's see if we can get to Sarah and her contribution to the cryptocurrency market. So let's start with our Congressional lawmakers. They are actually focused on women. And they are focused on trying to pass a Pregnant Workers Fairness Act in the Senate in 2022.

0:04:45.8 Torin: Let me tell you why this is a really, really big deal for me. Because I think about how long we've been saying we owe it to women to curate benefit packages that are a bit more... Even if I don't use the word a-la-carte, more customized and focused on their needs versus just throwing them a PDF and saying, "This is what it is." And so I'm happy that they are working hard as a body, a political body, to make some changes to women who decide to give birth.

0:05:33.5 Julie: Yeah. Well, I was reading this, and you may not know this, but most of the time pregnancy is covered under disability in terms of a lot of the protections, accommodations, those kind of things. And so it's interesting to me that we still need to have another law that basically, it seems like just outlines accommodations for women when they're pregnant. And it's like, most of the time we talk about pregnancy, we talk about how short the leave is, how much of it is unpaid, how little time a parent, female or male get to spend with their new born, and that's a huge thing. But it looks like most of this is really talking about the basic accommodations that a pregnant woman needs while on the job.

0:06:26.8 Julie: And these are not huge things. It's like having water, being able to take a break more often, maybe starting early, ending a little earlier, going on light duty. Those things that really should already be ingrained into our cultures need to be codified here by Congress. And I think that's a little bit discouraging. I think one thing that's really been on my brain a lot the last few weeks is also just miscarriage. When a woman is pregnant and she gives birth to a live child and they get leave and they do all those things. When a woman miscarriage, miscarries, excuse me, there are substantially a lot less accommodations and supports for women 'cause it's not really kind of largely recognized as a traumatic event.

0:07:23.9 Julie: Some women who have miscarriages do give birth to fetuses that have passed away. And that really isn't covered. It's like, "Hey, you had a minor surgery." You come back in a few days later, you kinda get over it and move on. I'd love to see that kind of stuff really addressed here, to look at the totality of a woman as she goes through that journey of pregnancy, birth and sometimes loss.

0:07:51.7 Torin: Yeah, absolutely. And again, you raise an interesting point around the need for legislation. And I think that we'll always have needs for legislation. Things change, we go through various cycles, humanity moves at a different pace, different frequency, and it requires that we add layers of protection, layers of consideration. So I absolutely get that. But you do raise an interesting point because again, down at the state level, you see they have no issue challenging some of the protections for women. You see at the highest level, the Supreme Court, they are considering some of those same challenges against women. And yet, right in the middle, it's like, we're struggling to get that right.

0:08:46.6 Julie: Yeah, the basics.

0:08:48.7 Torin: Yeah, the basics.

0:08:49.1 Julie: The basics.

0:08:49.2 Torin: We're struggling to get the basics right. We're willing to operate on the extremities, the extremes, if you will, but we're struggling to get the basics right. I submit that, and I don't know this to be a fact, but my guess is that there are more women in the workplace that need this right here and or what you mentioned around stillbirths, miscarriages than some of the other legislation that's being bounced around. So I hope that they can get their act together and make this happen.

0:09:28.6 Julie: Yeah, absolutely. So another Tesla story today. Kaylen Barker...

0:09:32.1 Torin: Another one?

0:09:34.9 Julie: Another one. They must be in your feed. Like, you're getting sent those Tesla stories all the time. Kaylen Barker in the news regarding the environment and Tesla, excuse me, Tesla's California factory, calling it reminiscent of the Jim Crow era. I think we should just start calling it the Jim Crow era again, based on all of the things that we're seeing. It's not reminiscent. We're back there in some places.

0:10:00.4 Julie: So the suit alleges that in September, after Barker asked Joan... After the woman Kaylen Barker, excuse me, asked a woman to step back from some machinery for safety reasons, the woman that she supervised, the employee called her the N word and threw a hot grinding tool at her. She was injured. And along with it, it seems like dozens of other incidences. Ms. Barker reported to HR and the woman was fired but then rehired two weeks later.

0:10:36.5 Torin: Two weeks later. And this is the same plant where Owen Diaz, the guy who was working the elevator, brought his suit and wasn't it 300... Was it 300 million or 30? It was a bunch of millions.

0:10:50.9 Julie: I think, it was a lot. [chuckle]

0:10:53.0 Torin: Yeah. It was a bunch of millions, I forget the number right now off the top of my head. But Owen Diaz, just literally, this was just within the last 90 days that we covered that story and the resolution to his litigation. And again, it just really goes to show that you have some people in leadership that are absolutely willing to turn a blind eye, to turn a side eye to the activity, some of it egregious, the egregious activity of some of their people.

0:11:29.5 Torin: And I think about it in this instance, Julie. I think about... I'mma go personal. And I think I've shared this story before, I think about my time when I was leading a team at MCI communications. And I vividly recall one of my top performers in sales was an addict. He had a drug problem. And he would go missing for two days here, a day here, maybe three days here, and then he'd come back. When I say missing, no call, no show, just missing.

0:12:02.8 Torin: And in the beginning, I didn't really understand it and I think I was an average in terms of leader. I had probably been in the role 18, 24 months, something like that. Fairly new. But then I started to recognize, "Okay, wait a minute. I'm not holding him accountable for his actions, for his absences. And the reason I'm not holding him accountable is because he's one of my top performers. I need his contribution so that we can smash our sales goal. He generates income, I generate income."

0:12:40.0 Torin: But when I recognize why he was away, I just asked myself a simple question. "Is he able to purchase drugs if he has no money?" So, if I cut off his ability to generate income, then hopefully I help him reposition himself to get help. And so I cut off an artery, a production artery, because I was trying to save him. And I wonder why is it that this person felt, "I'm gonna re-hire a person who is throwing equipment at other employees." Why would I do that?

0:13:20.6 Julie: I have no idea. Obviously, hiring is not easy right now but that... You basically just signed the check on someone's lawsuit when you do that. It makes no sense to give that woman a job back under any circumstances because it basically is a justification of Kaylen Barker's lawsuit. That she can't be treated anyway that she wants, which she has reported, it seems like, dozens of times, and then to be physically assaulted and have that person still work under your leadership is incredible.

0:14:01.0 Torin: Yeah, absolutely. And I hope that she wins too.

0:14:04.9 Julie: Yes.

0:14:05.0 Torin: I hope that she wins as well and that the organization itself decides that they are going to absolutely do something around how they are approaching inclusion. This is one of those stories where I wish we were live, and I could ring Kimberly Jones, our good friend Kim Jones, out in California, so she could just give us a comment real quick. Shout out to The Queendom in California.

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0:14:36.4 Reporter 1: Madam Speaker, a new Instagram account called Dear White Staffers has been collecting troubling accounts...

0:14:41.3 Speaker Pelosi Can we... If you've got something extraneous, I'm happy to get to. But let's talk...

0:14:44.0 Reporter 1: No, no, no. But do you...

0:14:44.8 Speaker Pelosi: We're trying to keep government open, we're trying to be pre-eminent in the world. And I'm happy to come back to that. Any questions on what we're doing here?

0:14:50.9 Reporter 1: But, what do you make of staffers who are on food stamps in this building?

0:14:52.8 Speaker Pelosi: Jake, what do you got? What do you have?

0:14:57.9 Reporter 2: I'm wondering about...

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0:15:00.6 Torin: Just like that, Nancy Pelosi is like, "Whatever." We'll leave that right there. Nancy Pelosi is not in any way having it. [chuckle] J, she wouldn't try to talk about that Instagram account, the Dear White Staffers. That Instagram account, the... I would think at this particular point, they'd have a couple hundred thousand followers, but it's still funny. Have you looked at it at all?

0:15:27.6 Julie: I just started checking it out, getting ready for this story. I think we all know how congressional staffers are treated if we're into politics, which obviously I am. But so everyone outside of the Beltway to be seeing these horror stories... And these are people who make 20, $25,000 a year to start. Like no money. And then they get treated like this. And it's well worth reading Dear White Staffers on Instagram. Congress needs to do better.

0:16:02.7 Torin: Absolutely need to do better. And in a flash, that IG account isn't afraid to spill the public tea. NBA teams are adding chief experience officers to their C-Suites while NFL teams are wondering if their owner has been out showing their ass. Way too many Rio Tinto workers said that they were scared to report abusive behavior, and yet again, another black body. Write your resume software for humans. That's what Ian Siegel says. He's the co-founder of ZipRecruiter. And on Reuters, the headline read "Rio's dreadful workplace report may boost the cost of energy transition."

0:16:51.8 Torin: What that suggests is that we're going to have to pay for their poor work environment and leadership. And from Joe Rogan and his use of the N word, which is old, and his apology, which is new, imagine that you and I, again, are paying for that sexual assault. It sounds a bit artificial, less than fair to me. And no matter what you might be thinking at this very moment, J and I will be right back.

0:17:26.7 Julie: Alright, so you mentioned a mining story before the break?

0:17:32.0 Torin: Yeah, that's Rio Tinto.

0:17:32.8 Julie: Tell me about it.

0:17:34.3 Torin: Yeah, yeah, that's the piece that I mentioned with Rio because, again, it was interesting for me because it's a space that we don't talk much about. When I think about the conversations that we've had, the various environments and workplaces in which we've focused our attention, which we've narrowed our conversation, I don't remember our ever discussing the mining space. The industry of mining, the industry of foresting. I don't recall us ever talking about those spaces.

0:18:11.0 Torin: But what happened was, this particular week, a report came out and it was focused on the mining industry, it's a company called Rio Tinto. And they have female employees in there, which unfortunately have been... And that certainly wasn't a smile, it was a gasp. They have... When you are thinking about going down the shaft of a mine, you are in those little cages, those little elevator cages, you are pressed together, and the story starts to talk about how women are standing there so extremely close to their male colleagues, and they can absolutely feel men grabbing and groping them. And I had to stop for a moment and I'm like, "Where do they do that at?"

0:19:11.7 Julie: Yeah, yeah. This is an Australian-based company, and to have... They actually put this report out on their own. They're like, "Hey, we treat employees very, very badly to the point where we've had attempted rapes, actual rapes of female colleagues. A known list of people you cannot have meetings with in the morning or in the night, going down in what are pretty perilous conditions already, and then being sexually assaulted in a mine shaft elevator, it's... Wow. And they're really the first out to have this kind of open and honest conversation, and bring to light the egregious treatment of both women and men in the mining industry, when it comes to sexual harassment and sexual abuse.

0:20:05.3 Torin: Yeah. Abusive, toxic, hazardous, inappropriate, violating type treatment that women are experiencing in the industry. And I will tell you, I was a little surprised because I'm thinking to myself, "Well, how many women are actually in the industry?" And when I looked at some of the numbers am like, "Well, it's... I would say significantly more than I thought it would be."

0:20:33.0 Julie: Fair.

0:20:33.7 Torin: And so for a moment I had to pause because, well, why did I expect there would not be a lot of... I just didn't think that it would be a lot of women working in that industry, and it was actually much more than I thought that it would be. And you know where I wanted to go this week, Julie, I just wanted to put a general question out there. When we think about Joe Rogan, and his use of the n-word, which to me is one thing, the comment around it looking like I just walked into the Planet of the Apes, referring to a room of Black people, a business location of Black people, that comment was even more problematic for me because there was no context around that, so to speak. That was just you speaking how you felt. But when I think about Joe Rogan and what he's dealing with. When I think about the conversation of Brian Flores, for his suit against the NFL, the timing of the suit, seeing as though this is Super Bowl weekend.

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0:21:44.8 Torin: I just ask a question, when is enough enough?

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0:21:52.0 Brian Flores: From a football standpoint, I'm gifted in this and I love coaching. But to speak out, to file a lawsuit puts something that I'm so passionate about, that I know I've made an impact as a coach, as a leader on young players, it puts all that in jeopardy. And a lot of people aren't willing to do that. But again, I'm not thinking about me, I'm thinking about those other coaches who don't feel like they have this voice, and that younger generation that needs to see more people that look like them in head coaching, GM, positions of power.

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0:22:45.9 Torin: How much more has to happen for people to recognize, this really is enough? Like, "Okay, game over... We've proved our point. Let's do something different." When is enough enough?

0:23:09.4 Julie: What's I think most flooring to me, if we talk about Joe Rogan first is, Spotify paid $100,000,000 to have exclusively The Joe Rogan Show Experience, whatever the fuck you call it, on their site, on their platform. So they are the publisher, the exclusive publisher of The Joe Rogan Experience. And I was flipping through Twitter the other day, and there's a video, I'm sure you've seen it, of him using the n-word on, I think in that it was like six, seven different occasions, six, seven different shows where he used the word. And you cannot tell me that Spotify spent $100,000,000 and didn't have someone listen to every single episode. Did not do that due diligence, that vetting of the content that they were paying exclusive rights for. So Spotify's leadership as the sole publisher, as the owner really of that content, they justified it, and they knew about it before they paid for it. And that to me is the "When is enough enough?" the question... You didn't find out about it and then condemn it, you didn't try a rule and it failed, you didn't kinda cheat a rule, you knew that he was out using the n-word, that he was having anti-Semitic guests on who said that, the Holocaust, probably 200,000 people died of typhoid or something, and not 6 million Jewish people from around the world. And still thought it was okay to exclusively produce this content. That's what I don't get.

0:25:08.3 Torin: Yeah. And so here's the challenge... The challenge in this show for me is... I'm posing the question. You didn't ask the question, I did. And that's not to say that we don't share that question, but I asked the question. So for the listening audience, you're hearing "Well, wow. Torin is a bit frustrated." But I wanna remind you again, and I try to operate in a place of authenticity, reality, honesty, transparency. When Dave Chappelle was going through his issue, I didn't feel like Netflix should pull his content from their site. I don't feel like Spotify should pull Joe Rogan's content. Do I think that his comments are off the wall and kind of... Yeah. But I still don't feel like they should pull this content, and I think part of the reason why I feel that way... Part of the reason why I feel that way, J, is because individuals are going to always find a home, whether that home be public-facing, whether it be some place that's off on the corner. You remember we had an episode and I shared a link with you... I can't remember what we were... But you went to the home page, and you were like, "Whoa." It was crazy, the content that these people had. It was so bad, we didn't even mention the link on the show because we didn't even want people to go over there.

0:26:58.6 Torin: So I know I sound conflicted. I might sound a bit hypocritical to our listener. And I don't want you to feel that way, but if you do, that's totally up to you. I don't feel they should pull his content, I just choose not to support it. I'm not listening to the show, I don't use Spotify, I'm not using Spotify, and I try to operate... In some ways, I try to operate in a control the controllable posture. You've heard that phrase before? Control the controllable.

0:27:33.8 Julie: Yes.

0:27:35.2 Torin: I try to operate with that control the controllable posture. If I want, I can send a message to Spotify, I can tweet the NFL because of Brian Flores, I can reach out to the board for Rio Tinto and talk about what they're doing with women. I can control certain things, but I ain't trippin' on them being on the platform.

0:28:05.6 Julie: So tell me why, and I struggle with the same conversation or the same issues in my head... Yes, someone like Joe Rogan, or someone who uses the n-word, or who is an anti-vaxxer, is going to find an audience somewhere. And free speech protects their right to say what they want without fear or influence from the US government. But why is it okay that he says all of these things, and 100 million people, or how many ever people listen to him say that word, and he makes all of this money and it makes it okay. I feel like it normalizes... And maybe your point is just like, "Julie, you're not gonna get Joe Rogan pulled, so do the things that you can do, and change the things that you can." But I really struggle with when these social media, media platforms, period, should give voice to... And lots and lots of money to really dark antiquated, pervasive racism, like he does.

0:29:22.6 Torin: Yeah. But again, think about it. How is it that Spotify is able to... First of all, let me go to your original question. The 100 million listeners or whatever that count is. What that says to me is that, that messaging... There's an appetite for that messaging. Somehow he has tapped into... He's tapped into an interest of theirs, he's garnered their attention. And whether or not they believe much of what he says, all of what he says, will run through brick walls for him, I think that's a question that they have to answer. I think what we're doing right now is we are almost hypothesizing... Kind of when we are recruiting, we say, we try to ask behavioral-based questions and not hypothetical questions, because we're trying to get more of, how a person will actually perform in the role based on their prior experience, their prior contribution. I think it's a question that those millions of listeners should be asking. You see, they're the ones who are out on the platform saying "Freedom of speech." They're the ones who are saying, "He did absolutely nothing wrong."

0:30:45.0 Torin: I think about the conversation right now in some circles that's happening in Minnesota, with the death of Amir Locke. There are people, counter-protesters, counter-protesters that are saying the police did everything right. That there was nothing that they did wrong in that scenario. And I was in a conversation with our producer and I said, "You know, well, first question is... Did they do the no-knock warrant on the right address?" Because if in fact we go and find out that the no-knock warrant is on the right address, it's gonna be a hard argument to suggest that the police didn't do what they were supposed to do. And I haven't heard that in any of the news accounts, I haven't heard whether or not it's the right address. And so I just think that when we are looking at a lot of these scenarios, we struggle because we're trying to process it through the lens of the people that are participating. Does that make sense?

0:32:01.3 Julie: Yes. No, it does. I mean, one, just I think no-knock warrants need to be gone away with, period. If you come into my home and you don't knock, I'm going to assume that you are here to hurt me or my family. I had a friend, about 15, 20 years ago who was killed by the police in his bed, after they entered his home while he was sleeping, and... So that's something I just feel very, very strongly about. And I think to the point, just kind of putting these two together, and maybe even the Rooney Rule together, is that even if you did nothing wrong under the law, under the rules, under the... Whatever, then it means that the rules aren't right. And we have to start thinking differently about what is allowable under the rules, and what is appropriate and correct in terms of how you treat and engage humans, and maybe not especially but... And those that help you make a dollar for your brand.

0:33:19.7 Torin: And what I hear is that, again, if we think about these various scenarios, whether it be the mining organization, having different people in leadership, different people considering how is it that we are moving to and from our work location, what are our policies for holding people accountable, what's the toxic procedure and protocol for reporting incident and acting on those incidents, when we think about the Rooney Rule, and then Brian Flores' case, what are we going to change about our owners? How are we going to absolutely fine, and/or sanction them for simply going through the procedure and not being genuine and authentic about it? There is absolutely something that they can do. How do we shift some of the power away from the owners, maybe we don't give them the TV rights and the access that they are clamoring for and absolutely winning from, maybe we penalize them in the draft process... Change the rules, is what I hear you saying.

0:34:25.7 Torin: I hear you saying as it relates to policemen, being able to say, Well, wait a minute before we go and knock on this door, could we maybe have sat outside the home for a day, a couple of days, a couple of hours, and watched the movement to see is there something different that we can be doing. And what this requires, not only is it that we are changing the rules, the regulation, the policy, the procedure, but it's changing who is hosting these conversations, contributing to these conversations. And so for some of you out there, you might say, Well, wow Torin and Julie, they went from the Rooney rule to mining to... What else did we talk about? Joe Rogan, we were on... But all of these are around inclusion, it's all around who's sitting at the table shaping how the solution is presented to society, who's sitting at the table shaping how the solution is presented to a particular community? We gotta have different voices, which is an even more critical reason why we should be working to have representation.

0:35:37.0 Julie: I think you've wrapped it up completely, let's hear from our Her Voice sponsor and come back and celebrate some women.

0:35:47.7 Torin: Absolutely. Our Her Voice segment is about amplifying women that are making moves, it's sponsored by TalVista seeing beyond the obvious. And our first woman this week is a friend of ours, she actually hit the Wall Street Journal last week, she was talking about the gray collar strategy, and that person touched on the future of work and how it hinged on the understanding that talent and labor aren't all young, and that was said by our dear friend, Laurie Rudman, out of Raleigh, North Carolina. Shut out to you, Ms. Laurie Ruttieman

0:36:24.4 Julie: And now we have Priscila Coronado, who has become the first Latina to lead the prestigious Harvard Law Review, in it's 135-year history, the California-born child of Mexican immigrants plans to make the most of the moment by sharing her unique perspective and not shying away from her Latina culture.

0:36:44.9 Torin: And last but not least Boston city councilors, Julia Mejia or Mejia. I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right, but Julia Mejia and Tania Fernandes Anderson are proposing a new 15-member panel to study the impacts of systemic racism on the city and to explore the possible reparations for black residents. The reason I put this in there real quick, Julie, I just wanna put this in... In December of 2017, I believe it was December of 2017, 2018. I'm sorry, December of 2018, Boston Globe did a seven-part series. I keep telling you all, you should go and read it. Seven-part series and the headline of the first installation was, is Boston racist? And in that story, it said the wealth... The average net worth of a Black family in Boston was like $8.38 cents. So I am extremely, extremely, extremely satisfied that they are putting together this panel, and hopefully we'll be able to look at the impact of systemic racism in the city of Boston.

0:38:03.5 Julie: And as we wrap up the show this week, I'm going to use my name drop this week for us. Crazy and The King is adding transcription to our podcast episodes in our bid to be more inclusive and accessible to every human who's out there who wants to listen to crazy and the King. So now, every episode of season four has a transcription available, and since we had such amazing guests, the last six weeks of 2021, we've also added transcriptions for all of those interviews, you can check them out at crazyandtheking.com.

0:38:39.6 Torin: Love that, love that, love that shout out to us, we're just growing by trying to use year number four, our fourth year, we're trying to get in stride and do some different things. I close reminding each and everyone of you to share the pod with your digital tribe, find your voice. Let's build better cultures, better teams, better workplaces. Like, you really can do it. But you do have to find your voice. You gotta speak up. You have to absolutely speak up. For now, J and I are ghost.

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0:39:11.2 Julie: See ya.