Baltimore Sun Comes Clean and Use Alt Text and Win

[music]

0:00:01.0 Torin: We've been about this work: Diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, shared through the voices of a White woman and a Black man. We bring lived experiences. We have pursued D&I progress for most of our professional lives. We use Crazy and The King to cover news, tips from colleagues, and host incredible guests. Listeners count on Julie and I to transparently drive the conversation. We thank you for rocking with us. Check it. Julie, kick off the show.

[applause]

0:00:37.8 Julie: Welcome to Crazy and The King. Hello, hello, hello. So, I know you usually start the show, but I've just gotta say, Torin, I think, for posterity's sake, we need to record today that this week, Russia has invaded Ukraine. And this may, just putting that out there, may be a historical moment in our lifetimes, in our history, as we think about it, it's also a D&I issue that we should be thinking and talking about. But yeah, how are you? How do you feel about Russia and Ukraine?

0:01:16.7 Torin: Honestly, I don't feel much about it, because I feel like at some point we are always looking at... We're looking at other countries in terms of how we are policing the world. And right now, while it is Russia and Ukraine at the center of the conversation, it's pretty safe of a thought that if there become some live conflict, that in some way it's going to begin to bring other countries into that action, that activity. And I believe it's gonna bring them in in ways more than just simply setting sanctions. And so right now, I don't necessarily feel any way about it because I'm so accustomed to our having these, I don't wanna call them spats. I'm not trying to minimize it, but I am watching. Let me just say that, because we will... If we're involved, then that means some of our listeners' children...

0:02:29.7 Julie: Yeah?

0:02:30.4 Torin: Their sons and daughters are going to be over there and involved in some way.

0:02:35.5 Julie: Yeah, and I guess, I was saying this to you before the show, I am extra sensitive to it as I have a daughter who's in Budapest. And in case you don't know, Ukraine and Hungary share a small, but still share a border. So I've been really attentive to this news, just from a personal perspective. But I was reading some great articles this week about how Ukrainian, Jewish Ukrainians are fearing and practicing protections after a long history of Russian aggression and progroms towards Russian Jews throughout their history, dating, I believe, back as early as the 1800s, maybe even longer than that. So, there's a lot of compelling personal and I don't wanna say diversity, but different lived experiences that are happening and coming to the surface because of this whole conversation or this whole invasion or interaction or whatever it is we wanna call it right now.

0:03:42.8 Torin: What's funny is how the conversation differs from the political parties. At one point, there was a party who was extremely upset that a particular son had some interaction with Ukraine, and it's just amazing how they flip-flop on what incites them and what they're willing to give a pass to. Whereas in another instance, they are praising the president of Russia, like it's incredible how... And I gotta tell you, I say this to you often, it is one of the things that causes me the most, and I'm gonna use the word consternation, because I'm not thinking of a better word, but ire probably is the better word. Politicians cause me some of the most ire. And the fact that they, in their posture, are able to separate us the way that they do, it is just infuriating to me. So I'm watching it because I live here, I know it's going to have some impact on, again, our listeners. I don't think I have any family members right now that are currently serving, so I can't suggest that from a serving perspective, it's going to impact the family, but from a residual impact, gas prices and all of that stuff is gonna go up, so we're all going to be impacted.

0:05:24.5 Julie: Yeah, we definitely are. And I think that your point relates exactly to our main topic in the show, and I don't wanna give it away, but the influence of our media bubbles, our news bubbles, our social media bubbles, and how we feel about these types of things, it really matters and historically we're gonna talk about why those things matter today.

0:05:48.2 Torin: Absolutely, absolutely. Let's start with Google first though. It's a place where most of us can speak to some degree of authority. We bring the screen up, we bring the screen up and we see that little bar and we throw in what it is that we're looking for, short form, long-tail, one word, a number, a formula. The system has gotten incredibly smart. Google is something that we all know about. Well, there was a story over in the Washington Post that talks about how they have lowered salaries for some of the workers in North Carolina offices. I don't know if it's happening in other offices, but in The Washington Post, it specifically talked about the North Carolina offices, and in these areas, some of the executives say that it is really used or a measure to help increase the overall diversity of the workforce. They are going to these areas, areas where there's a concentration of under-represented talent or, to be more specific, Black-Brown talent, Hispanic, Latina, Latine talent, they're going to some of these areas, and they are doing a great deal of recruiting, but they are bringing them in at a salary lower than had they be working at HQ or in some of the larger cities like in Atlanta.

0:07:10.4 Julie: Yeah. This story, just, it just fucking makes me laugh. Like someone in a PR room set up and thought, "You know what, we're gonna pay people less, and then we're gonna try to figure out how to spin it as a good thing." "Oh, diversity, they're Black and Brown people that live in North Carolina, in Charlotte. Let's spin it that way." Not that you're just outside of DC, not that you're just outside of the defense triangle, not that you're just outside of massive amounts of available talent of every color, right, but we've been having this fight in 2021 about tech companies who want to allow workers to work from home, to work in different locations, but the payoff of that is you have to make less money. And to me, this is just Google trying to re-spin a story that is not worker-friendly, it's not good for diversity, it's not good for the people, it's good for Google's bottom line.

0:08:20.5 Torin: And talk about the bottom line, because it's not as if they didn't have a banner year in 2021.

0:08:27.7 Julie: Yeah. I mean, Google made $260 billion.

0:08:33.8 Torin: Now, now, now, now, now, now...

[laughter]

0:08:36.6 Julie: I knew you were gonna do that.

0:08:37.7 Torin: Now, now, now, now, now, you have to be as accurate as possible. We know the number in front of us is $257.6 billion, not 260. To our listeners, Julie apologizes. No, she doesn't. I mean, like a banner year.

0:08:57.7 Julie: Yeah.

0:08:58.6 Torin: And you gotta ask yourself, "What is it actually going to hurt to just simply pay people?" I don't know. I don't know how many people are impacted by this, but let's just say that the workers' salaries in these areas where they're lowering them, let's say that if they brought 'em up to par, it would shave another billion dollars off of the bottom line.

0:09:32.0 Julie: Yes.

0:09:32.5 Torin: Like, who is upset with $255 billion in revenue?

0:09:38.9 Julie: Well, I wouldn't be. The stock... The shareholders would not be. I mean, the 257 billion is up 41% from 2020. So again, these are massive growth numbers, massive, and to use this story as diversity is just like... It's comical in its idiocy and degrading in its way that people or that comps will actually think that anyone is gonna buy it.

0:10:10.2 Torin: Yeah. And I actually got down before we switched, I got down into the comments. So I'm gonna read two comments. One of the comments in The Washington Post story... You may not be able to find them, because by the time this pod comes out, I'm sure other people have commented, but one of the comments in the story came from somebody with the handle BK2015. He said, "Boeing tried the same thing with opening a factory in South Carolina, lower wages, weaker unions than in Seattle. It resulted in poor planes being built and more work returning to Seattle." That was his take. So, I'm assuming from that he's on our side of, pay the people what you pay them at headquarters. Another comment, from a person in the article, their handle was Blue Texan, he said, or they said, "I don't think they understand how location impacts pay. If you wanna be paid Atlanta wages, move to Atlanta." So he's against paying individuals the same thing that they would make in some of these larger NFL alpha cities. And so I guess this is not an argument certainly that we're going to solve in this particular episode, but it is absolutely a consideration that I think HR teams, compensation teams should be considering. When is it really justified that we pay people something less than their colleagues are making in another city?

0:11:57.5 Julie: So we may not be able to fix this, but let's talk about something that our listeners and you and I can have dramatic impact on, which is alternative text for images.

[music]

0:12:16.9 Torin: Hey, everybody, as you may have seen from the title page, the topic for this video is accessibility. Accessibility deals with how a computer reads data from your documents. I figured many of you have probably never used a screen reader before, so I recorded some examples of accessible and inaccessible content. After you hear a couple of these examples, I think you'll see how big of an impact you have by the way you enter your data.

[music]

0:12:49.3 Torin: Yeah. So I'mma hop into this one because I'm guilty. Like straight up, I'm guilty. I post on social media, and I don't include alternative text, or alt text. Tell 'em what alt text is.

0:13:05.8 Julie: So really simply, alt text is how a screen reader, or assistive device interacts with, and communicates, an image. So if I post on Instagram, and it's a picture of Tristan and I at the zoo, by a giraffe, if I don't put that text, all a screen reader hears is image, or maybe we get an auto-generated text from Instagram, and it says, "A boy, and a girl." It doesn't tell you the story of the image. Does that make sense?

0:13:46.9 Torin: It does. And let me tell you, one of the things that I try to do... I don't do it all the time, but I try to do when I'm speaking, is I try to speak to the folks that may have a visual disability, or some degree of visual impairment. And so when I'm standing in front of the camera, the mic, I may describe for the individuals, "Listen, this is what I'm wearing." Or, "This may be what's in my background." And so what you're suggesting is that every single website has that capability, because the alt text, and what we're saying is A-L-T, the alt text, is... It's programmed, or inserted in the HTML code for a particular page. But you brought up a specific example on Instagram, and I don't think... I don't know if enough people know that they can have an impact, even in their personal posts on Instagram, which is what I was saying. I am extremely guilty of not consistently doing that on Instagram, on Twitter, on Facebook, and on LinkedIn. Can you talk about how we can do alt text better, without using technology, just simply using our own keyboards, manually?

0:15:06.5 Julie: Yeah. So all of these platforms, Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, are now providing posters with the opportunity to put alt text into their image. And it's only happening about 0.1% of the time. So if you think that there are roughly 60 million images uploaded on Instagram every single day, 0.1 of them is having that alt text added. And let me tell you why you wanna take the time to do it. Just like... You and I were just talking about this before we started recording the episode, we have added transcription to our podcast. Why do we do that? Because we knew that we had listeners with hearing impairments, who are deaf, who would love to be able to read the podcast. That allows us to be purposefully more inclusive. And what's been the results of that? We've seen our listenership go up, we've seen our engagement from listeners go up, simply because it's also good for SEO. And so as a business, as people who are influencers on social media, and in our industry, it's important for us to do it, one, because it demonstrates living our values, and being as inclusive as possible. And we're never gonna be perfect at it, but attempts, right, will make a big difference to what you say are your priorities, but it also has an important impact for your image being seen more often, and your image being more attractive to Google, to algorithms.

0:16:50.6 Julie: So there's... And I don't wanna say that it's not important to do, because you wanna be inclusive. That's the reason you should do it. But just like everything that we do for my community, everyone ends up benefiting from it. People can read, people can engage. You and I, as podcast hosts, benefit from doing that, because it drives traffic to us. We are becoming a more trusted source. And that's really... If I'm making the case for, "Why spend 30 seconds before you post that picture, to put in that alt text?" It's really good for your brand. It's really good for you as a person to develop your social brand, and your social personality. It also helps people, who otherwise wouldn't get to interact with 61 million photos in a day, to have and hear your stories, hear what's going on in your life in a way that's rich and meaningful to them.

0:17:52.3 Torin: And I'm gonna tell you, the first time that I saw it on Instagram, it was... I can't remember whose post it was, but it was inside of the brackets. And on my keyboard, the brackets are just to the right of the P. And so I saw brackets, I saw A-L-T text, and then another bracket, and then I saw this description under it, and I really... And this was like within the last year, year and a half. And I sat there, and I read it for a moment. Reading it wasn't the issue, I was trying to understand what was the person doing, because I had not seen that in a post before. The person had already put up their image, they had put whatever little quirky caption goes up under the image, and then it said, alt text, different than me. I may do my quirky post, or whatever my post is about. I may throw in my hashtags, and I have some familiar phrases that I put under all of my Instagram posts, but I had not done alt text, and so... And I didn't even think... Honestly, Jay, I didn't even think to Google like, "Why is this person doing this?" It just kind of resonated with me. I said, "Oh, I got it." But it took a moment. Not a long moment, but it took a moment. And I understood. And I love... There's an individual, Dr. Amy Kavanagh. She's on Twitter as BlondeHistorian. Dr. Amy Kavanagh on Twitter as BlondeHistorian. She actually puts up a post... And this was on August 2nd of last year, 2021. But she says, "Here are my top tips. Number one, if there is text, include it."

0:19:39.8 Torin: Real simple, if there is text include it. Number two, she says, "What stands out to you in the image?" And she asked that as a question, so apparently, she's telling you, look at what is important to you in the image and then draft that under your alt text. She says, a red coat, a skyscraper, a dog. Describe it. Go ahead and describe it. And then the third thing that she says is, think about context. If it's a fashion picture, tell me about the clothing. If it's a group photo, I don't need every outfit to be described. And she goes on and it's a thread. It's a nice thread, we'll include it in our show notes, but it's a way for you to think about when you are out engaging on social media, whatever the platform is, maybe consider, as Julie said, taking an additional 30 seconds. Maybe it's a little bit longer than that. Maybe you have to spend four or five minutes thinking about, "Well, how do I want to briefly, succinctly describe what it is that's in this imagery?" But the impact that it's going to have in allowing so many more people to engage in what it is that I'm posting, allowing me to even become more of an influencer and build my audience as well. So I really, really appreciated the story.

0:21:06.0 Julie: Yeah, I did too, and it stood out to me, as we kinda wrap up this section, as so important, because really we're gonna get to a point where as businesses and brands, for those of our listeners who lead organizations and who lead talent acquisition and DEI, that not having a inclusive and accessible experience is not gonna work any longer. We had a friend of the pod a couple of the weeks ago, who called me after he applied to a job at one of the largest financial corporations in this country, if not the world, couldn't apply to a job because it wasn't screen reader-friendly. Completely unacceptable. And as individuals, we can start to see how easy it is, how there are opportunities within our everyday lives to make things more accessible and companies have even less excuses once we understand that.

0:22:03.5 Torin: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Shout out to you for that. I appreciate you dropping that story on... We got another resource attached to that, so make sure you continue to listen until we get down to the resource section in this week's episode.

0:22:18.5 Torin: Real quick: In a Flash, Brad Pitt sue ex-wife Angelina Jolie for selling her stake in the French vineyard to a Russian oligarch, officials announced their plan to remove homeless people from New York City subways, and local Apple store employees around the US are quietly seeking to unionize, this according to the Washington Post. Talk about one extreme to another, homelessness to Apple stores. Some call that privileged, others might say it's a little tone-deaf. Grab your passport, Australia will reopen to international travelers for the first time in two years. It seems like the Chinese-American community is beginning to flex more of their voting muscle and good for them and Sam Britton. I'm sorry. That is good for them. And Sam Britton says, "Yes, I know it won't be easy. Yes, I realize this is an enormous challenge, and yes, I'm ready to take it on." They wrote at the time. Now, if you're not sure who Sam Britton is, hit that search engine. A fire broke out on a 650-foot ship earlier in the week, and there were about a thousand Porsches and 189 Bentleys involved. Would you drive a burnt out Bentley? Coca-Cola launches a new limited edition flavor based on space. And I think that does it for our this week's installation of In a Flash. Julie and I will be right back.

0:23:57.9 Julie: Alright, welcome back. So we teased at the top of the show how important our media bubbles are, how communication and those media companies that are driving information into us on a daily basis, how important they are. Historically, those conversations are also starting to happen. Hook us up, Tor.

0:24:18.6 Torin: Absolutely, the headline says, "We are deeply and profoundly sorry... " Now, I'm just gonna pause for a second, because I really want that to sit with each of our listeners as we unfold this particular story. "We are deeply and profoundly sorry: For decades, the Baltimore Sun promoted policies that oppressed Black Marylanders; we are working to make amends." That's the headline. Deeply and profoundly sorry, oppressing Black Marylanders, and they are working to make amends. Story came out this week in the Baltimore Sun. And it really goes on to say that the newspaper frequently employed prejudice as a tool of the times, that it fed the fear and anxiety of White readers with stereotypes and caricatures that reinforce their erroneous beliefs about Black Americans. And the Baltimore Sun was founded by Arunah S. Abell. He is the founding publisher of the Baltimore Sun, and he was a Southern sympathizer and supporter. Story also says that we have made efforts before to bolster D&I or diversity and inclusion, but the evolution has unfortunately been slow. The death of Freddie Gray in Baltimore Police custody back in 2015, and the national light it shone on the persistent disparities in the city, shook us out of our complacency.

[music]

0:26:20.9 Speaker 3: I wanna piggyback on that and just say the word rebellious resonates with me. I founded a magazine called Rebellious and I used that word because my boss told me I was being rebellious when I was in the mainstream newsroom. And the reason was that I had asked for too many weekends off in a row. That's what I got called rebellious for. And I feel like it also speaks to like... We've been talking a lot about culture, about coverage, but I think we also, of course, the other part of that equation is newsroom culture. It is how Black journalists get treated in newsrooms in general, and the culture of newsrooms that supports the status quo idea that you have to be straight and White and middle class in order to be objective, that that is the default position for viewing the world, and if you are not those things, then you are biased. I mean, it's both about culture and about... It's both about coverage and about the newsroom culture and the culture of journalism as a whole.

[music]

0:27:24.9 Julie: So, among the paper's offenses, we've... And I love that they just did this. Classifieds...

0:27:31.4 Torin: Yeah, but Julie, you know what? Before you even do that, just when you originally hear the headline, does it strike an emotion? Does it take like the left side of your brain to a certain space? Does it take the right side to a place? Does it validate why you've been doing this D&I work? Does it make you want to double down on the work? Is it just another excuse, another red herring, another flare that perhaps the White community is sending up because they want to seem like they are woken allies? Or is it another flare of excuse that Black folks are using? Instead of pulling themselves up by their bootstrap, they're just simply... Like what did you think, Julie, when you heard the headline?

0:28:29.4 Julie: So, this may be naive, and I am never optimistic so just take that for what it's worth. It made me hopeful. It made me proud, if that's the right word, because they said the words: We are deeply and profoundly sorry, period. There's no caveats. There's no, "This is not us today. This is... " Like we are deeply and profoundly sorry, period.

0:29:03.4 Torin: Yeah, you didn't hear the, "If we offended anyone... " None of that.

0:29:07.7 Julie: None of that.

0:29:09.1 Torin: It was straight to the point. And, like you said, there was abbreviation. There was... It's a moment for you to hold on to what you feel to be genuine coming from the newsroom.

0:29:25.4 Julie: Yes, yes. And I love that they also went back and they didn't wait for someone to tell them what their offenses were. They identified their offenses, and frankly, they're fairly shocking even just to feel and hear out loud. So, for example, classified ads selling enslaved people or offering rewards for their return, which appear just two months after the papers launched in May of 1837. Editorials in the early 1900s seeking to disenfranchise Black voters because, as the Sun opinion writers wrote, and I'm quoting, "The exclusion of the ignorant and thriftless nigger vote will make for better political conditions," and to support racial segregation in neighborhoods, to preserve what Sun writers called, "dominant and superior White race." Just to name a few.

0:30:34.0 Torin: Yeah. Number three goes to what you said in the beginning of the episode when you talked about our hinting towards the power of how our media, how journalists have the ability to shape our opinions on world affairs, things that are happening here in our country, number three of one of their self-identified offenses. And this really is amazing to me. Not amazing, but I'm appreciative of it, like our Rio Tinto story from a couple of weeks ago, how they self-published what it was that they found inside of their workplace, the Baltimore Sun has done exactly the same thing inside of this particular story. Number three says that it was a failure on their part of hiring or not hiring African-American journalists before the 1950s and too few journalists ever since. I wanna pause there for just a moment. Because there is an association, National Association of Black Journalists, nabj.org, NABJ, National Association of Black Journalists.org. And for the longest, they have drafted articles, held talks, they've published papers, and they've gone after... I shouldn't say gone after. They've highlighted the lack of representation, the disparate coverage across the media landscape, from the big television powerhouses to radio houses, I mean, digital platforms. For the longest, they've highlighted this disingenuous and inferior toned reporting for an extremely long period of time.

0:32:25.1 Torin: And I think it's extremely important that people who are not from Baltimore... I'll share something with you all. We have a non-profit organisation here in the City of Baltimore by the name of the Abell Foundation. The Abell Foundation, formally known as the AS Abell Company Foundation was established on December 31st, 1953 by Harry C. Black, a philanthropist and then chairman of the board of the AS Abell Company, the former publisher of the Baltimore Sun.

0:33:07.1 Torin: I bring that up because there is a lot of conversation around how philanthropy takes place in cities. And one of the things that I look at when we are consulting inside of organizations, not only are we looking at your hiring practices and HR policies, but we are also looking at how are you giving money to organizations in your cities. Now, I don't know this to be true. I don't know any history on the Abell Foundation in terms of their giving, I didn't do that amount of research for this particular episode, but the question becomes, the Abell Foundation is a titan in the philanthropic space here in Baltimore. Has their giving been tainted by the original founders? And if it was, has it shifted? Have they themselves made an apology? Just something for us to think about. Julie, do number four for us.

0:34:16.0 Julie: Yeah, I think this one sat with me probably the most, a reliance by too many of us for too long on the word of law enforcement over that of Black residents who said they were being improperly targeted by police.

0:34:32.2 Torin: Yep, and I'm just telling you all, you gotta understand when the organization itself says that we've done wrong, and they are willing to give you a number of examples, you have to have some degree of appreciation and hope that now that they've admitted their shortcoming, that we are able to hold them accountable in the journey forward. How is it that we are going to make things better and just because we are highlighting the Baltimore Sun, you all might remember Meghan Markle and Prince Harry.

0:35:20.9 Speaker 4: The feeling is that this was our decision, therefore the consequences are on us. Despite three years of asking for help and seeing or visualizing how this might end, it was... I don't know, it's been really hard because I'm trying... I'm part of the system, with them, I was happy.

0:36:00.4 Torin: You remember that, don't you?

0:36:00.5 Julie: Oh yes, always. And just to wrap this up, the Baltimore Sun is not the only news outlet, and I'll look forward to diving into these and seeing where they make my head go, or my brain go. The LA Times in September of 20, Kansas City Star, December of 20, Columbia Journalism Review, January of 21, The Philadelphia Inquirer, just up late last week, and as you may remember from a previous episode, Torin and I highlighted the Howard Center for Investigative Journalism 2022 project called Printing Hate. They have a dearth of additional new stories on there every single month. Definitely go check that out again. So Torin, I ask you, where do we go from here?

0:36:50.3 Torin: Where we go from here is that we continue to make sure that we are looking for inclusion and representation, and equity and belonging in all places and spaces where we are assembling people, building high-performing teams. While I know the conversation so often slants towards technology, because it's just in so much of what we do in terms of live, work and play, that we cannot ignore the conversation of diversity and inclusion or DEIB or any other acronym. We cannot ignore the importance of that conversation in any place where people are involved, is that fair?

0:37:33.3 Julie: Absolutely.

0:37:36.5 Torin: Awesome, awesome, awesome. Listen, we wanna make sure that we throw in our ad real quick and then we're gonna get to our her voice segment because we appreciate the good folks over at TalVista. Great, great, great. So our her voice segment, which is where we amplify women that are making moves, it's sponsored by TalVista, where they say, "Seeing beyond the obvious." Our first person this week is... Her name is Veronica Placencia. Placencia, I think I'm pronouncing that the correct way. She works for the Bakersfield affiliate, that's in Bakersfield, California. She works for the affiliate 23 ABC. She was promoted to news director, and I absolutely love her twitter handle.

0:38:27.8 Torin: Her twitter handle is news mom Veronika with the a K, news Mom Veronika. She's originally from El Paso, and hopefully her background in culture will add to the conversation of inclusion and perspective, which we just touched on a moment ago.

0:38:44.2 Julie: And we have a once controversial book that's found in new audience titled, "Our Separate Ways: Black and White Women and The Struggle for Professional Identity", which generated an alarm when it was published back in 2001. It was said by some professors that Alabel Smith and Stella Nomo regarded as organizational behavior royalty would put their tenure in jeopardy if they published it. The book studies the experience of 120 Black and White female managers to explore where race and economic status and not just gender play a role in their career outcomes. It hit shelves again, on August 10, 2022.

0:39:26.0 Torin: And the Olympics is over. Three indigenous women made history, Jocelyne Larocque, Jamie Lee Rattray, both of the Metis Nation played for the Canadian Team, and Abby Roque Ojibway from Wahnapitae, First Nation for the US. Listen, I know I'm butchering that, but if you get out online and do a quick Google search, three First Nation, three indigenous women played in the Olympic games, and this was the first time ever. It was the largest, largest contention of indigenous athletes in the Olympic games ever. I promised a quick resource, I'm gonna give it to you regarding Alt Text. It's a resource titled, Alt Text as Poetry workbook, will include the link, but if you miss the link and you are Googling, just Google Alt Text as Poetry workbook. And real quick, Black History Month is coming to an end. In a resource that I learned about last weekend as I was riding around the city, it was founded by Dr. Carter G. Woodson, who many consider to be the father of Black history. He founded the organization titled The Association for the Study of African American Life and History. The acronym is ASALH. You can also find them on twitter at ASALH.

0:41:00.6 Julie: And as a quick name drop this week, you can now find the names Crazy and The King on Amazon music and Audible.

0:41:09.6 Torin: On Amazon music and Audible. I think we are trying to grow a little bigger. Love it. Close, reminding each and every one of you to share the podcast with your digital tribe. Like do everything that you can to find your voice inside of your organization. Let's be better humans, let's build better teams, let's build better workplaces, for now, Jay and I are Ghost.

0:41:39.0 Julie: See ya!

[music]